Armour Dreams

[colin jones]

John, excellent job you're doing and great fabrication work. Have you decided on a drive train yet and what type of tracks are you going to use.

[Jonathan Moore]

Evening all,

I have been very busy, the upper hull is complete, painted and waiting for me to make all the fittings. The drivers vision cover is complete. The turret has been painted and the markings applied and now I just need to assemble all the fittings into it. I decided that while I am making other bits it would be nice to have a stand so that I can sit the turret on top of the upper hull and as you can see that's done but I am going to add some casters so that I can move it around easily.

Jon

[Jonathan Moore]

Some more pictures

[Jonathan Moore]

And lastly for now.

Jon

[Jonathan Moore]

I have been beavering away as usual and to tell the truth the turret ring took longer than anticipated but now I have a turret that rotates. I spent this weekend assembling the turret on to the upper hull and fitting all the various components. There are still a few details to finish but on the whole I am quite happy with it and excited to be starting the running gear and lower hull, oh goody.



Jon

[Jonathan Moore]

A few more.

[Jonathan Moore]

And then, all I needed was a dummy to stand in the turret but don't tell my son I said that.

Jon

[Wayne Hingley]

Very impressive work Jon! I cant wait to see what you do next.

[Jonathan Moore]

Thanks Wayne

[r.morrison]

Jonathan: You just never cease to amaze me with your workmanship. Hopefully your son appreciates your "gift of talent" now or in the future. Hats off to you! Robert :

[BCA]

I would like to revisit the axle discussion and the proposed solution of flipping the drive axle to allow for correct gearing. I recently saw a T16 drive axle mounted upside-down in a replica armoured vehicle which unlikely ever been driven because there was no engine. However my suspicions are that there would be major fluid issues from operating the axle upside down: either leakage or failure to have proper fluid distribution. Anyone with experience or an opinion?

[Bob Carriere]

In the good old days of dune buggies when one installed a Corvair engine onto a VW trans-axle ( with an adapter plate) it was necessary to flip the ring gear assembly of the VW trans-axle to accommodate the different rotation of the Corvair engine...... I have never seen the inside of a T16 axle....but is it feasible????

From the overall appearance of the T16 axle it seems to have some sort of wet clutch assembly on each side....if so the concern from BCA may be very appropriate.......

If the T16 axle was simply rotated flat.... not upside down...... the input to the gear cluster(driveshaft) would need to be reversed...or you get 1 forward and 4 reverse gears......

But the rotation of the driveshaft to the front axle can be changed by feeding the transmission output into a regular CMP transfer case and using the front axle output of the T case which would effectively reverse the rotation...... and with a 2 speed T case it would add the low gear ratio......

You need a paper and pencil sketch to fully understand it....... but I believe it can be done!!!! will need to take my sketch to the barn and verify my assumption..... all based on a clockwise rotation of the engine when seen from the front!!!!!

And from having taken T cases apart with its massive straight cut gears, I believe it can be driven backwards....

Now in this instance, with the engine located off center to the right, I would feed the engine/transmission output into the front axle yoke of the Transfer case and use the input shaft (where the transmission is usually connected) of the transfer case to feed the front central gear cluster mounted T16 axle.

Not sure how much space is available to install the T case.

Comments please....

Cheers

[rob love]

On the armoured snowmobile/penguin models, they used an upside down T-16 axle. Have a look at "Mud and Snow Vehicles...page 24 and it details the changes required.

[Jonathan Moore]

Robert,
good to hear from you and thanks for the inspirational comments. I actually don't think that my “gift of talent” as you refer to it, is a gift, more of a curse. It seems that in this day and age of the throw away, people who can do, are not required or valued. I would love to make a living doing this sort of work but there's not a market for it around here. My Grandfather always told me that engineers would be worth their weight in gold one day but it seems not in my life time.

RIGHT, THE DRIVE TRAIN.

Firstly thanks for the discussion.

Now that I have a clearer picture of where I am going with the project, I have made some working decisions.

I don't have a T16 axle and if I did I couldn't bring myself to cut it up for this application.

I estimate that the completed tank will weigh between 5 to 6 tons.

Its not going to be used to invade Poland but it has to work and be reliable. It is, after all, just an engineering exercise.

Therefore I intend to use components that are available in the UK, relatively cheap and plentiful and that I know.

Working on a power to weight ratio of 15bhp per ton, I am going to use a Land Rover 2.5 diesel 300 TDI, which in theory produces 110 bap. Connected to a standard 5 speed gear box but run through a reduction box to reduce the gearing.

The steering will be a simple braked differential, again using a modified Land Rover axle casing and differential. As per an original PZII.

The steering brakes, and this will be interesting, are going to be discs, with a set of drum brakes either side to act as parking brakes.

All this will be camouflaged to look like the original drive train. The length of the Land Rover engine and gear box will just fit in to the engine bay, which elevates the problem of trying to recreate the original configuration of a remote clutch and gearbox. Running the gearbox through a reduction box will negate the need to turn the differential upside down, but in all honesty I don't think that this would matter in this case.

All your comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated, as are any suggestions on where, in the UK, to get track links cast.


Jon

[Jonathan Moore]

There doesn't really seem much to show you because I have been fabricating and machining lots of components ready to install into the hull. It all takes loads of time for what seems very little result. Firstly sorry for the quality of the pictures the light wasn't very good tonight. As you can see from the pictures ,the main hull has been welded together and over the next week I will attempt to weld the various components in place. I hope by tomorrow night to have rolled the front of the hull but its a major job with my very limited equipment so it may take more than one attempt but we will see.

The 3rd and 4th pictures are the inner and outer bearing houses for retaining the radius arms into the hull side and the plates with the holes in are strengthening ribs. First job tomorrow, before rolling the front, is to get the 4 front housings in place and accurately in line. Not an easy job by hand, these housings would have been machined on a special machine so that everything lined up perfectly but I don't have such a machine so fingers crossed.


Jon

[kevin powles]

Looks suberb, well done.

[James P]

Really amazing fabrication skills there in your build. Why the Dunkelgelb for the interior Vs White ??

[Jonathan Moore]

I am glad that it meets with your approval, its good to hear peoples comments and suggestions they all go into the computer.

Its not actually Dunkelgelb its the correct RAL colour, RAL 1001 Ivory for the interior of German tanks. I assume that white got dirty too quickly and maybe it reflected any interior light too much but I don't actually know for sure.

Jon

[David Dunlop]

Jon,

Nice work.

I recall reading somewhere that German Armour was often two toned inside. The ivory colour you are using being applied to the upper portion of the interior, but the lower hull area sometimes left in red primer. Have you ever run across this?

David

[Dave Newcomb]

Hi; Just a note; Many engine mfgrs have marine/ industrial options that feature a reverse rotation. It's often a cam/ ign change. Newc

[Jonathan Moore]

David, You are right regarding the two tone interior colour but from what I can ascertain it was a mid to late war trend intended to save time and paint. Although in reality there doesn't seem to be any concrete evidence as to why. I think that Its unfortunate that so much time and research is spent on every detail of the bigger German tanks and that these earlier models, that were so important, are largely ignored.

Jon

[James P]

Paint on vehicles, always a subject to see folks hair go on fire. My viewing of the interior of German vehicles interior with original/factory paint is rather limited and less then the fingers on one hand. Early war tanks, maybe that beige 1001 is good and correct, I know it is correct for a Sd.Kfz.251 (and not some OT 810 jazzed up to look like a 251) mid war and being open topped makes sense. A tank being a more closed down vehicle could be off white gloss enamel so its less "cave like" with a low watt interior light bulb and easy to wipe clean. As an economy measure areas like a engine compartment (such as the Whirbelwind at Borden) show primed engine compartment, white/ivory paint in hull interior and I can only assume the open top gun turret is the same DG paint on both interior as exterior. Again I am NOT an expert on what the original/factory paintwerk would be on German armour during various years and types of vehicles AND as it is your vehicle it is yours to paint as you wish. That all said I really do salute the terrific work you have put into this work and it is something you should be proud of. What will you be running it on track with ? Universal carrier?

[Jonathan Moore]

Quite a good day today, lots of bits tacked in ready for hopefully rolling the front of the hull on tomorrow.

Jon

[Jonathan Moore]

progress, progress. Bending the radius on the nose of the hull was fun lots of leverage and heat, which was most welcome on a cold day. I gave it a coat of red primer to keep the surface rust at bay.

[Jonathan Moore]

All ten suspension arms are now complete, apart from the wheel and locating arms which is my next job on the lathe.

Oh and I made a chocolate cake.

Jon

[David Dunlop]

Is the cake still there???

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Is the cake still there???

David

I bet the chocolate lab got it.

[Jonathan Moore]

The dog didn't stand a chance, my son had most of it. Just a tip for all those making such a cake, if you put the chocolate eggs on when the topping chocolate is still warm, the inside goo of the egg dribbles over the top and down the sides of the cake. There's lovely.

Jon

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Moore

The dog didn't stand a chance, my son had most of it. Just a tip for all those making such a cake, if you put the chocolate eggs on when the topping chocolate is still warm, the inside goo of the egg dribbles over the top and down the sides of the cake. There's lovely.

Jon

I think your description of the dribbling goo and its effect is a little too graphic for those of us still under 18 years of age...

Still, seamlessly moving from tank bogie suspension arms to chocolate cake does demonstrate a certain diversity in skill sets!!

[Jonathan Moore]

A mans got to eat and my wife doesn't like cooking so needs must when the devil drives.

Although I had drawn the suspension arm location shafts on CAD, I decided that I would make a set just to make sure that some plonker, that,s me, hadn't cocked up. Well it turns out that I hadn't. The outer bearing housing retainer has an oil seal pressed in to stop the ingress of dirt. Then there's the complete set, bearing housing retainer, shaft, bearings, the relevant spacers and finally, the complete set installed in the hull. The hole in the end of the shaft is for a greasing point that I have to make, see below. I am not going to weld the arm to the shaft until I make the wheel axles and I don't think that I will do that until I have made a wheel. Only 9 more sets to make.