Canadian Centurion tanks question

[Ed Storey]

Two questions:

1. Have you asked the Ontario Regiment Museum which Mark of Centurion it is and if so what have they said?

2. Is there any evidence inside of a brass plate with the vehicle's serial number, this will be two numbers-two letters-numbers and what is it?

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Two questions:

1. Have you asked the Ontario Regiment Museum which Mark of Centurion it is and if so what have they said?

2. Is there any evidence inside of a brass plate with the vehicle's serial number, this will be two numbers-two letters-numbers and what is it?

I've asked various people here, old hands and people who have worked on the tank before, and none have been completely sure what Mk it is.

I'll have look for the plate.
Malcolm

[David Herbert]

Could it be an ex British one ?

David

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie

I've asked various people here, old hands and people who have worked on the tank before, and none have been completely sure what Mk it is.

Malcolm,

It must have come from somewhere. The museum must have records. However, pending the discovery of a paper trail, the more photos of the tank you post, from all angles, the easier it will be for Mike and the others to identify it. I would think a photo of the top and bottom of the glacis plate would allow Mike to determine if it had been up-armoured.

It's also got a very strange paint job, like it was a monument piece at one point.

Good luck on the project. It would be nice to see one up and running.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Malcolm Towrie]

An old hand told me today the Cent came from St. Hubert Base in Quebec. We got it when the base was closed down. I see from Wikipedia St. Hubert was primarily an air force base, so this surprises me a bit. It was closed down in the mid 90's. I've only been at the museum for a few years but I'll go out on a limb and say that not much if any paperwork exists or changes hands when an old beater gate-guard is given to a museum willing to take it. But I will ask about paperwork, just in case.

A guy who worked on the tank a few years ago showed up today so I picked his brains. He showed me the two large tapped holed in the top of the mantlet where a mount for the spotlight was attached. He confirmed what Mike said about the part of the bustle designed for storing the light.

He also told me he believed the CFR number painted on the tank, 52-S-100S (see photo) is a typo and should be 52-8-1008 (or was it 52-81008?).

He confirmed the upper glacis plate doesn't have the additional welded armour. There are no brass plates inside the tank. He showed me 4 tapped holes in the left hand wall of the driver's compartment where a plate used to be.

He confirmed there were 2 coax machine guns installed but he was surprised to hear this indicated a later Mk as he thought it was a Mk 5/2. His theory on the 20 pdr is that it was installed when the 105 was removed for use elsewhere.

He showed me where a 50 cal was mounted on the commanders cupola.

There is a small control panel in the turret that refers to IR lighting.

He also suggested that the impecunious Canadian army was selective on what upgrades were installed, based on need and cost, so some cherry picking was done. Maybe that explains an unusual mix of upgrades?

I have attached some photos of the front of the turret as Mike requested.

Thank you for your help on this. It's a fascinating exercise.

I'd be happy to take more photos if it would help.

Malcolm

Attachment 101180

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[Mike Cecil]

That looks like a 105mm gun profile to me, but I'd have to see more of it to confirm, especially the fume extractor. Mind you, it is possible to jamb either a 20 pdr barrel or a 105mm barrel into the same breech and mounting.

I'm betting it's a "Tank, Medium Gun, Centurion Mk 11 LR".

The tank would be fitted with two co-ax weapons, but one is the Ranging Gun, the L6A1, .50-cal, which is restricted to firing 3-round bursts at each depression of the firing pedal (actually, to be precise, three single rounds, controlled by a controller box). So the .50 is not strictly used as a co-ax machine gun, hence the name 'ranging gun'. It was originally termed a Ranging Machine Gun, but the terminology was altered to reflect its true application as a ranging gun only.

However, the controller could be overridden by the loader/operator by hand, in which case the weapon reverted to true automatic operation.

Mike

[Malcolm Towrie]

Sorry, Mike, I didn't realize you wanted to confirm that the gun was a 20 pdr. I can tell you it has no fume extractor at all. Does that confirm it is a 20 pdr? If not, I'll take more photos.

Malcolm

[Mike Cecil]

Probably, Malcolm - the early-issue 'A' Barrel of the 20-pdr had not fume extractor, whereas both the 'B' barrel and the 105 mm did have a fume extractor fitted (but with different 'looks': the 20pdr had round ededges and concentric to the barrel, the 105 had squared edges and was eccentric).

I suspect, though, that what we are seeing is a Mk11 LR with a 20-pdr barrel fitted. Maybe the museum could locate an L7 105-mm barrel and do a swap?

I'll likely be in your area in November, (considering heading to a history conference at RMC Kingston): maybe I can drop by for a peek?

Mike

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie

He also told me he believed the CFR number painted on the tank, 52-S-100S (see photo) is a typo and should be 52-8-1008 (or was it 52-81008?).

52-81008 was in the series of numbers for the Centurian tanks. I believe they started at 81000 and went up from there. The ARVs were in the same block. It is just as possible the last digit is a 5 on yours. It would seem that deterioration or a quick paint job in it's past lost the original numbers.

[eddy8men]

the barrel will be identified by either measuring the calibre at the muzzle, 20 pdr is 84mm or the stamps on the breech end.
it does seem to be a bit of a mismatch

[jdmcm]

Malcolm

I am on the hunt for a bustle rack for a Centurion, exactly like the one on your tank, haven't had any luck finding one, would you be able to make a few measurements of yours so I could take a crack at re-creating one from scratch? I know it's a lot to ask and you guys are busy out there, but if you had time at some point it would be greatly appreciated

Regards
John

[Robin Craig]

John,

I am up at Oshawa in October and can make a template and transfer to paper and mail that, but wont be until October 6th.

Malcolm,

re my earlier post Brian is looking at turret stowage re those boxes.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie

An old hand told me today the Cent came from St. Hubert Base in Quebec. We got it when the base was closed down. I see from Wikipedia St. Hubert was primarily an air force base, so this surprises me a bit.

CFB St. Hubert was a post-war Air Force base from 1946 to 1965. It was the HQ for Air Defence Command before ADC moved to CFB North Bay. In 1966 it became HQ for Mobile Command (later Land Forces Command) and the airfield was passed to the Department of Transport. It remained the HQ until it closed.

Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie

I've only been at the museum for a few years but I'll go out on a limb and say that not much if any paperwork exists or changes hands when an old beater gate-guard is given to a museum willing to take it.

Well, that explains the paint job.

Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie

He also told me he believed the CFR number painted on the tank, 52-S-100S (see photo) is a typo and should be 52-8-1008 (or was it 52-81008?).

As Rob confirmed, CAR 52-81008 is correct.

Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie

He confirmed the upper glacis plate doesn't have the additional welded armour.

He confirmed there were 2 coax machine guns installed but he was surprised to hear this indicated a later Mk as he thought it was a Mk 5/2. His theory on the 20 pdr is that it was installed when the 105 was removed for use elsewhere.

There is a small control panel in the turret that refers to IR lighting.

So it's a Mk 5, without uparmouring, fitted for IR lights, fitted for a ranging gun, but with a 20-pdr Type A barrel.

Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie

He also suggested that the impecunious Canadian army was selective on what upgrades were installed, based on need and cost, so some cherry picking was done. Maybe that explains an unusual mix of upgrades?

Your friend is right about the Canadian Army being impecunious. Impecunious is a college word for cheap, and the Canadian Army was cheap. My theory is that, as St. Hubert was just across the river from the Army workshop in Montreal which was responsible for updating the Centurions stationed in Canada (I think it was 202 Base Workshop), when a gate guard was requested, the Workshop provided one made up from the bits and pieces available, and, as your friend suggests, accounts for the unusual mix of upgrades.

But that's just my theory.

Cheers,
Dan.

PS: The body and the turret may come from two completely different tanks. Again, just a theory.

[Ed Storey]

Dan nailed the ID of this Cent. My list shows 52-81008 as a Mk 5/2 MBT ECC 118109 that was surplused out of CFB Montreal in 1978.

I think there are two things that need to be learned from this and the first is that the Ontario Regiment Museum needs to first spend some time and resources in accurately recording and preserving the historical data on the vehicles in their collection. Turning to internet forums may be a cheap and easy fix to answering a question but a museum should not be using this method as the primary means of obtaining information. A look at this thread shows that it took half a dozen dedicated enthusiasts analyzing the details to voluntarily crack this mystery.

Secondly the museum should have a library of books and documents which supports the vehicles in their collection. The Centurion has been documented in commercial publications and purchasing a copy of Weapons of War - The Centurion in Canadian Service - 2005 ISBN 1-894581-20-2 would be a good start to the library.

[Mike Cecil]

Ed, that great to know what the tank started life as (or rather, finished its active Canadian army career as?). A positive aspect to work with. And I agree with you about getting hold of basic texts, handbooks and so on - they can be so informative.

A Mk5/2 was a 105-mm equipped version that did not have the IR or .50 cal L6A1 fitted, and was not fitted with glacis plate applique armour.
A Mk 11 did have both the IR and .50 cal L6A1 fitted, but was also fitted with the glacis plate armour (ie a Mk11 was an upgraded Mk6, rather than an upgraded Mk5/2. If a Mk5/2 was upgraded with glacis plate applique armour, it became a Mk6)

So maybe Dan has hit the nail on the head with this one - a 'bitzer' made up from:
- the lower half (hull with fittings) from a Mk5/2
- the turret from a Mk.11, (and not just the mantlet from a Mk11, as the turret has the IR control box fitted adjacent to the battery balance box)
- a 20-pdr barrel

Wouldn't be the first gate guard to be assembled from what was available in the workshop 'scrap'.

One way to ascertain if the lower hull was ever fitted with IR would be to look for the auxiliary battery mounting and heavy wiring in the lower right corner of the fighting compartment, mounted to the hull wall, with enough room below to operate the in-floor ammunition bin. Two batteries stacked one above the other in this mounting. There should also be a stowage box in the drivers compartment for the driver's IR periscope.

Mike

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

My list shows 52-81008 as a Mk 5/2 MBT ECC 118109 that was surplused out of CFB Montreal in 1978.

ECC 118109 is for a Mk 5/2 fitted with IR and an RMG. This according to Equipment Characteristic Sheet serial 40-4-6, dated Sept 1970, published by the DG Ordnance Systems.

A Mk 5 had an ECC of 118105.
A Mk 5/2 had an ECC of 118107.
A Mk 5/2 with IR alone had an ECC of 118108.

I would think the vehicle part (What is the correct term for the non-turret part of a tank?) is from a Mk 5 or Mk 5/2. The only change for the turret not to be a Mk 5/2 with IR and RMG is the 20-pdr barrel, which, as Mike has pointed out, is a quick switch as both it and the L7A1 105-mm barrel were compatible.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say it is a Mk 5/2, but with a replacement barrel. I would think that at the time it was thought keeping an L7A1 barrel on a gate guard would be wasteful, as 105-mm guns remained on Canadian tanks even after the Centurion was replaced.

Now, how do we Fedex a Type B barrel to Oshawa?

Cheers,
Dan.

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Dan nailed the ID of this Cent. My list shows 52-81008 as a Mk 5/2 MBT ECC 118109 that was surplused out of CFB Montreal in 1978.

I think there are two things that need to be learned from this and the first is that the Ontario Regiment Museum needs to first spend some time and resources in accurately recording and preserving the historical data on the vehicles in their collection. Turning to internet forums may be a cheap and easy fix to answering a question but a museum should not be using this method as the primary means of obtaining information. A look at this thread shows that it took half a dozen dedicated enthusiasts analyzing the details to voluntarily crack this mystery.

Secondly the museum should have a library of books and documents which supports the vehicles in their collection. The Centurion has been documented in commercial publications and purchasing a copy of Weapons of War - The Centurion in Canadian Service - 2005 ISBN 1-894581-20-2 would be a good start to the library.

Ed, I hope I have not maligned the museum, an organization I am delighted to be associated with. They may well have information on this tank. I simply haven't asked them! My first instinct was to call on the impressive knowledge available in this forum. And frankly, I think most of the people responding haven't minded adding their 2 cents.
Malcolm