Wireless Set No. 52 Canadian - Project

[Bruce MacMillan]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

That struck me as very odd since no other wireless set manual I have in my possession shows more than one Satchels, Signals listed.
David

You must not have the WS11 manual then.

Depending on CES the set was issued with 7 or 8 satchels !!

[David Dunlop]

Good Heavens, Bruce! One could go broke finding satchels.

Do any of the 11-Set publications explain the surplus requirement? There is nothing at all in the 52-Set tomes covering the addition of just one. It crossed my mind the second satchel might be a carry over from the earlier 9-Sets but I have none of that family of manuals to cross reference for confirmation/explanation.

David

[Bruce MacMillan]

The kit for the ground station had 7 satchels whereas the kit for a general purpose vehicle had 8. AFV's were only issued 1. There were lots of bits and bobs and multiple headsets and mics so that could account for the number.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Good Heavens, Bruce! One could go broke finding satchels.

Do any of the 11-Set publications explain the surplus requirement? There is nothing at all in the 52-Set tomes covering the addition of just one. It crossed my mind the second satchel might be a carry over from the earlier 9-Sets but I have none of that family of manuals to cross reference for confirmation/explanation.

David

The WS19 "set and standard kit" contains at least one satchel (I think), and the installation kit for the Pershing had extras, presumably to hold the extra headsets and possibly the headset extension cables, though the latter were really too large (20 yards?) to fit.

The original "Satchel, Signals" was intended to replace the leather "Bags, Telephone Receiver" and "Cases, Message Book, Mark IV" as I recall, so having extra headsets would be a good reason for adding satchels to keep them tidily out of the way and stop them getting dirty or tangled up.

(If anyone has an original "Bags, Telephone Receiver", or the message book case, in good condition I'd be interested in it for the hoard/collection.)

Chris.

[David Dunlop]

Chris. If it’s military, its not hoarding. It’s Patriotic Preservation.

Out of curiosity, I took my two Main Set Headgear, No. 3 Microphone and No. 9 Morse Key and they all stuffed easily into one Satchels, Signal.

The two headsets and cable bits for the Remote Receiver all stow in the wooden Remote Receiver Case which would travel with the Remote Receiver when deployed, so for the typical Ground Installation, all expected needs would be covered with the one satchel. I can see individual operating teams mooching an additional ‘ad hoc’ satchel in the field. Particularly for the Remote Receiver. Grunting the largest, full, wooden support box any distance, would be harder than leaving the case with the main set, and grabbing a spare satchel of accessories and the Remote Supply alone. That said, I am still scratching my head a bit over this one.

The only vehicle install I have run across for the 52-Set is for the C15TA. Must reread it to see if a second Satchel, Signals shows up in it.

In the meantime, good luck with your PP, Chris.

David

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Chris. If it’s military, its not hoarding. It’s Patriotic Preservation.

Out of curiosity, I took my two Main Set Headgear, No. 3 Microphone and No. 9 Morse Key and they all stuffed easily into one Satchels, Signal.

The two headsets and cable bits for the Remote Receiver all stow in the wooden Remote Receiver Case which would travel with the Remote Receiver when deployed, so for the typical Ground Installation, all expected needs would be covered with the one satchel. I can see individual operating teams mooching an additional ‘ad hoc’ satchel in the field. Particularly for the Remote Receiver. Grunting the largest, full, wooden support box any distance, would be harder than leaving the case with the main set, and grabbing a spare satchel of accessories and the Remote Supply alone. That said, I am still scratching my head a bit over this one.

The only vehicle install I have run across for the 52-Set is for the C15TA. Must reread it to see if a second Satchel, Signals shows up in it.

In the meantime, good luck with your PP, Chris.

David

Heh. Thanks.

The difference between Wireless Set No.1 (and/or 11) and Wireless Set No.52 (or the original No.9) is the intended role.

1 and 11 were "front line" sets intended for infantry/cavalry use (at battalion level) - Battalion to Brigade communication- and had to be portable, hence the separate power and aerial tuning units, and the set being a one man load. The original Wireless Set No.2 was intended for Brigade to Division (also AFV use), and would be vehicle mounted - not even Charles Atlas would be able to carry the set very far.

So for the Infantry sets everything had to be divided into man-portable loads - major components had carrying straps, custom webbing (Bags, Aerial Gear), and everything else went in Satchels.

Vehicle kit would be in (demountable) carriers and storage lockers/bins. Headsets and microphones would go in satchels to protect them from dirt and damage, giving easy access if they were suddenly required.

Wireless Set No.3 has one "Bags, Telephone Receiver" listed for the Ground Station and four specified for the Vehicle Station.

(I can't put my hand on the W.S.2 pamphlet right now - need to sort the bookcase out again!)

The WS52 will be similar: set semipermanently installed in a vehicle and ancillaries in the various storage boxes in cupboards. If the Remote Receiver is required it can be dropped off and carried to site for setting up. The Canadian remote control units were self contained, with the headset and microphone in their own compartment and a carrying strap for the complete unit.

At some point I'll produce a complete, illustrated, list of the "Satchel, Signals" range - there were at least 12 of them, for various distinct purposes, in a wide range of sizes and styles. (Some evolved over time as the shortcomings of the original design were discovered.) Satchel, Signals (no number, No.1 or No.1T) was the original, turning eventually into "Haversacks, No.1" in the mid 1950s; No.2 was the battery carrier for WS38 and WS18; No.3 (ditto) for the WS46 (without the wiring harness for the set - fit that and it becomes Carrier Battery WS46); 4, 5 & 6 were for various mine detectors; 7 is for the 60 watt pedal generator ancillaries; 8 is a weird zippered cover for something (probably mine detector related because it's under the Z5 DMC); 9 is one I've never seen; 10 is the backpack for WS 38 Mk.3; 11 is likewise unknown; and 12 is the carrier for the Detector, Mine, No.6A (lightweight version of the 4A for airborne and beach landing operations.

Chris.

[Bruce MacMillan]

[QUOTE=David Dunlop;262864
The only vehicle install I have run across for the 52-Set is for the C15TA. Must reread it to see if a second Satchel, Signals shows up in it.
David[/QUOTE]

The manual I had for my M152 sigs van (C42/52 setup) lists 4 satchels. ZA27294 was "field pack, canvas, signal, No. 1, MK1/1. Manual was post WW2 dated 1961.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Bruce MacMillan

The manual I had for my M152 sigs van (C42/52 setup) lists 4 satchels. ZA27294 was "field pack, canvas, signal, No. 1, MK1/1. Manual was post WW2 dated 1961.

OK, a bit of "research" - basically plugging NATO Stock Numbers into Google (and noticing that both the level and accuracy of detail returned has fallen dramatically over the last few years):

8465-99-973-6154 - SLIDE,WAIST BELT,BR CN/AA.1629

8465-99-973-6226 - BELT,LINEMAN - still leather, I think. CN/AA.0130

8465-99-973-6253 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - for barbed wire cutter. CN/AA.0960

8465-99-973-6254 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - for sidecutting pliers. CN/AA.0980

8465-99-973-6260 - LOOP,LEATHER

8465-99-973-6262 - RUNNER,SWIVEL - probably the leather loop for clasp knife on the lineman belt. CN/AA.1595

8465-99-973-6264 - FIELD PACK - not signals related CN/AA.1616 Satchels, Battery Staff, R.A., Mk.2

8465-99-973-6828 - SLIDE,WAISTBELT - CN/AA.1619

8465-99-940-0047 - FIELD PACK - HAVERSACKS, NO.1 (Replacing Z1/ZA.6292 & Z1/ZA.27294 - SATCHEL, SIGNALS No.1 & No.1T)

8465-99-978-8792 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - a later version (DPM IRR)

5140-99-428-9823 - POUCH, TOOL, LINESMAN - webbing belt pouch

5140-99-428-9823 - POUCH, TOOLS, LINESMAN - DPM version

5140-99-901-5108 - CARRIER, TOOL, WEBBING - Hellerman tool carrier

And my "Satchel, Signals" list, accumulated over the years:

Satchel, Signals
____ - ZA.6292
No.1 - ZA.11947
No.1T - ZA.27294 (Patt. 44 green or Patt. 1937 khaki)
No.2 - ZA.13347 (Shoulder strap stitched to bag at one end)
No.2 Mk.2 - ZA.21324 (Detachable shoulder strap, 'L' strap fittings)
No.2 Mk.2/1 - ZA.29367 (Tropicalized version of ZA.21324)
No.3 - ZA.14869 (Wireless Set No.46 backpack - without harness, etc.)
No.4 -
No.5 - ZA.22756 (For Detector, Mine [Polish] No.3)
No.6 - ZA.24242 (for Detector, Mine, No.4 or 4A)
No.7 - ZA.24805 (For Charging Set, Pedal Driven, 60 Watt - ancillaries)
No.8 - ZA.24907 (Under section Z5, so bomb location & mine detector?)
No.9 -
No.10 - ZA.26516 (For Wireless Set No.38 Mk.3)
No.11 -
No.12 - ZA.29004 (For Detector, Mine, No.6A)

The "Satchel, Signals" range started as a single webbing item, replacing the previous leather "Bags, Telephone Receiver" and "Cases, Message Book, Mark V" according to the 1940 VAOS, with a stores code of ZA.6292. This is the earliest listing I have of the numbered "Vocabulary Of Army Ordnance Stores", and must be pretty close to the initial allocation of code numbers.

So, we begin with:

ZA.6292 Satchel, Signals
ZA.11947 Satchel, Signals No.1 (which I suspect was simply a redesignation).
ZA.27294 Satchel, Signals No.1T (Tropicalised version, also known as Satchel, Signals, No.1 Mk.1/1 - these appear in standard khaki or light green (1944 "jungle" webbing canvas), but all on the same stores code.

Then the switch to NATO Stock Numbers:

Z1/8465-99-940-0047 Haversack, No.1 - listed in the May 1960 CES for WS31 as an alternative to Z1/ZA.6292 Satchel, Signals.

This was still being manufactured in 1990, and possibly later still.

Haversack, No.1 mainly appears in dark green tropic-proofed canvas, identical to that used for the 1958 pattern web equipment, but I think some earlier satchels were marked with the new NSN. It's entirely possible that the khaki version continued for desert and Indian issue, since the "Pouch, Tool, Linesman" appears in both 1937 and 1958 shades of webbing, under the same NSN (as, indeed, does the much later nylon DPM version)!

I'm looking for the missing "Satchel, Signals, No.4" (which I think is a backpack for a mine detector and has a large hole in the bottom for cable entry from the search unit), and numbers 9 and 11 (which I have never seen), plus any variants I don't already have.

(I do have some US and Canadian manufactured satchels, mainly from WS19 installations, by various makers. I haven't bothered to compile a full list.)

Web searching is getting less useful as the density of advertising outweighs the actual information content (and my current browser seems to want to take over the world on occasion: filling the disk with 2GB of temporary storage that I think is just advertising crap that requires a restart just to get rid of it and restore normal functioning). Also errors are creeping in, as you can see from:

8465-99-973-6253 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - for barbed wire cutter. CN/AA.0960
8465-99-973-6254 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - for sidecutting pliers. CN/AA.0980

which are wildly different items (the portion after the '-' is my research).

Argh!

Chris.

[David Dunlop]

Hi Chris.

The Satchel referenced in the 52-Set Manual is Satchels Signal No. 1 (ZA 6292), but the manual goes on to state a number of variations of this particular satchel exist and all are compatible.

My 1944 RCA 19-Set Mk III came with Satchel Signal No. C1 (ZA/CAN 2120).

My Canadian used but partly American made Mk II 19-Set has a USA made satchel with large block letters across the top flap saying SATCHEL SIGNAL. No ZA or CAN numbering at all on it at all.

Interesting also how the words, Satchel, Satchels, Signal and Signals morphed around as well.

David