Quebec Transport Ministry + MV owners

[David Dunlop]

Hello again, Tony.

Stuart has clarified the autonomous status of the Provincial Control of highways and motor vehicles quite well. I would just add that, for the sake of smooth traffic flow across the nation as a whole, enforcement of local regulations on out of province vehicles is normally very limited.

Just as an example. Currently here in Manitoba, a front licence plate is mandatory on all motor vehicles. Next door in Saskatchewan, a front plate is not required. That non compliance for visitors is ignored in Manitoba. If, however, somebody moves from Saskatchewan to Manitoba, they are allowed a fixed period of time in which they can still operate their vehicle under Saskatchewan registration. After that, they must submit the vehicle to inspection to meet Manitoba standards for registration.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of military half track vehicles that cannot be licensed for the road here in Manitoba (not withstanding heavy armour) by civilians. The legislation governing this is nearly 100 years old and relates specifically to old farm machinery that used to have heavy lugs on steel wheels or tracks that would chew up the early roads. It makes no sense at all being applied to modern, rubber half track tracks, but that is the piece of legislation that is hauled out and waved in your face if you attempt to put a half track on the road today in Manitoba.

David

[Terry Witiuk]

I've read the info on the SAAQ website about vehicles that require C licence plates and it says that any vehicle 30 years or older is required to have these plates whether preserved or conserved. This would include classic cars as well. Has this always been the case and mandatory in Quebec or is this whole C licence plate a new thing? If this isn't new, does anyone know how long it's been in place? Also, if not new, was there any efforts to stop this when first introduced. Aside from the LSVWs that are being sold off by the CF and possibly some newer Humvees that have made their way into Canada, I would think that most of the military vehicles owned by MV enthusiasts in Quebec have passed the 30 year mark and fell into this category years ago. The stipulation of not being allowed to have a turret or weapon mount is possibly more concerning. This would take some vehicles off the road entirely. I wonder what is SAAQ's official definition of a turret or weapon mount?

[M38CDNBill]

Hi,

Although this ministerial order only affects recent military vehicles (Bombardier Iltis until the recent Humvees through the VSLR and other larger vehicles), Willys jeeps and other vehicles of the WWII, Korean and Vietnam wars are not affected by this ministerial order. However, we are following this issue closely because we believe that it's only a matter of time for them to be affected as well.

I agree with you, this ministerial order is an aberration all the more since we hear through the branches that this order of the SAAQ will be followed by another one which says that in 2024, all the antique military vehicles will have to to be removed from circulation. What is true in all this? I don't know but one thing is certain, it will certainly have impacts in the rest of Canada in +/- short time.

As for the C-plate, the idea is not incongruous in itself. Willys/Ford jeeps (MB, GPW, M38CDN, M38A1s), Dodge 3/4 tons, CMPs, GMC M135 and MUTT M151A1/A2 don't cruise at an average speed over 70 km/hr. Where this order is a nonsense, it's that there are no roads at 70 km/hr anywhere in Quebec so sometimes we have to take shortly a road at 90 km/hr to go from one place to another. As for highways, it's very dangerous to take them anyway.

Cheers

[rob love]

I drive a military vehicle daily to work on the highway, either the HMMWV or the M38A1CDN3. I will also tow my 105 with the old deuce a couple times a year. All are capable of cruising at 55, and I have not felt like I have been an impediment to the other vehicles, although they do prefer to go 10-20kms over the 90km speed limit. If a rule like this were to come to Manitoba, I would be landlocked....the highway is the only road leaving my place.



I note on the SAAQ website, it says the word "can" as opposed to must or shall for the first paragraph re what can be registered with C plates. Is there an advantage to C plates? Are they exempt from safeties, or do they get a reduced rate? Or is it merely a collective to remove vehicles that are not as fast as todays vehicles form the roadways.



I note the regulations state "no turret or weapons mounts. " Would having the GPMG mount on a M38A1 preclude you from having to get a C plate?.



Hopefully this nonsense does not make it out to Manitoba. Things are a little more laid back here. We also have MAAC (Manitoba Association of Auto Collectors) who are very involved in discussions with autopac re keeping the vintage vehicles on the road.

[Robin Craig]

I have had some looking around and discussion with others and would like to offer the following to the debate from what others have said to me

The SAAQ is looking at military vehicles by named type, non standard VIN's and mostly, was there ever a civil counterpart IMPORTED to Canada ( i.e does it have a Transport Canada Civil import classification )

For example, only three civil Iltis were imported to Canada, but, these are listed as VW type 183's and have a standard VW VIN, the rest are easy to find, as the have a DND number. The VW type 183s are exempt from this new rule.

If it has no civil road going counterpart, like a half track, Ferret etc, no C plate will be issued. If it has a weapons mount ...again, no C plate, its being pulled off the road

Imported Unimogs also get swept up easily as few early non-military types were imported, and Transport Canada has never authored commercial import as a truck...only in the classification of tractors

Same goes for anything that has no civil counterpart by Year of Manufacture, so you might get away with a an MB if it was a 46 ( first year of CJ-2) or an M-38A1 ( CJ-5) but only if the VIN doesn't trigger the SAAQ data base...an earlier MB will get a C plate, but, not if it has a pedestal mount for example, and its possible, as there was no civil variant before '46, that they are off the road, but the feeling is that they will be C plated

There is an appeal process , but that might be lengthy

To the guy in BC with the Ferret...BC has a an Act within the ICBC and Road users legislation that covers any vehicle that is Armoured. Basically, no armour is allowed unless engaged in transportation of valuables by a licensed company ( Brinks et al )

This legislation is on the books to prevent gangs from armouring their cars against gunfire, are issues in BC.

There is an appeal process for a case by case exemption, but he has to write to the minister of Transport BC with an explanation to why he needs it

Quebec does not use English Common Law ....the inverse is true under Quebec Civil Law, if its not prescribed, Quebec’s view is that its not legal ( therefore, new legislation is easy to create and enforce)

It is not so much the regulators it is mostly a lack of understanding of the vehicles themselves.

To what level SAAQ regulatory staff have much training or skill in separating classes and vehicle types is debateable, so the more general they can be, the easier it is to pass a regulation. This legislation could be changed by a group making a petition for adjustment, but , it would have to be a Quebec group showing why their MV's should be treated like any other vehicle

As it stands until this a former DND Iltis had to be modified to meet Quebec road safety standards before a licence was issues ( mostly lighting ).

In closing, in most cases in most provinces and territories, registering a vehicle for use on the road is a privilege not a right, nor is having a drivers licence. This is highlighting that, and reminds me that we should value what we have. I feel sad for those in Quebec who have to endure this.

[Harry Moon]

And of course any correspondence with Quebec authorities, written, email or otherwise must be in French....

[Harry Moon]

Who Does Not Require a Permit for an Armoured Vehicle?

Under the Armoured Vehicle and After-Market Compartment Control Regulation, you can operate an armoured vehicle without a permit while performing your job if you are a:

Police officer
Armoured car guard
Government employee operating an armoured vehicle as part of your job
Diplomat
Licensed vehicle salesperson or registered motor dealer
Certified mechanic with a repairer’s license
You also do not need a permit to operate an antique-plated armoured vehicle or a military vehicle covered by the Defense Production Act.