Canadian snow related equipment post WW2

[Robin Craig]

After discussion with Hanno I am posting here for the minute and maybe in the future he might move it.

So, please, one and all, if you have something related to being a soldier sailor or airman that is specific to winter operations and not part of a vehicle, this is the spot for it to go.

Please try to keep on topic and not have thread creep.

[Robin Craig]

I find it fascinating how such a simple piece of kit as a tent pole can end up with some complex and intricate engineering and design.

I have two examples in my collection, the orange one I have two of and will willingly part with FYI

The orange one has a date of 1973 on it but when it first came into service or went out I dont know.

The pole has a cap that unthreads and then sections deploy with a bayonet lug internally holding each section up and final height setting is with a cross pin at the bottom which mine is missing.

The spike on the top has a cross drilled hole for what I am not sure, maybe a washer and R clip.

The bottom has a dimple and I am sure there was a base plate but I do not have one.

It is from an era when all snow kit was orange for finding in the snow

[Robin Craig]

The second design is mostly aluminum and is equally complex in design and materials and manufacture.

Firstly it has a meaty hing mechanism instead of several sections.

The fine tuning of height or final adjustment is done by means of a threaded section. However for speed, the nylon type locking collar can be slid out of the way and then that section can be telescoped and then slide the collar back and final threading can take place.

I have pictures of them side by side for comparison and size.

I have to thank Eric Booth for very generously giving these to me knowing I am collecting items snow related. Thanks mate.

[Robin Craig]

This next item is a bit of a curiosity as I have not seen them before and because of the documentation that Eric Booth gave me that was attached at the time he acquired it. Documentary evidence is always interesting.

It seems this was a small one person toboggan and hauled using a harness rig and some cordage which I do not have but will recreate in due time. The material for the toboggan is fiberglass with that weird engineered pressed wood stuff as the runners held on by rivets.

The green harness is alleged to have been for it. Interesting is the name for it.

[Robin Craig]

I wasn't able to include this above as I had reached my image limit.

[rob love]

The hole on top of the poles was normally for a washer and a cotter pin. The soldiers were forever coming to me for the pins, as they would bend it over each time and wreck them. The reason for the pin you ask? Because the guy who would crawl into the tent to place the pole into the hole (he was called the pole man) would have to stand there until the rest of the guys got tension onto the guy ropes.

At one point I actually made up washers with a little chain and the pin, hoping they would quit losing them. It didn't take long before I quit making those up. Perhaps if I painted them orange.

There were also those little plastic orange tent pegs...useless in the arctic temps with frozen ground. They would be replaced by 10 or 12" steel spikes. Of course, when you went to move the troops would merely toss the guy ropes with nails still attached and fold up the tent. That way, when they set it up again, they could have that planetarium effect of seeing daylight thorough the dozens of holes that were now in the canvas. The mat techs would then scrap the tent, depending on how many holes there were. Remember they got a fresh set of dozens of holes for each teardown and movement.

Re the toboggans, those 100 pound ones could be found in aluminum or fiberglass. There is also a white canvas cover for them, similar to that used on the 200 pound toboggan. Some of the toboggans can be found with the C/l\ on them along with the other nomenclature, although I have only seen post war versions of these toboggans. I used to keep one in my MRT as it was perfect for moving vehicle battery's along the gun line when you had to do repairs on the M109s. .

[Robin Craig]

Rob, if ever you see a cover there is a home here for it. I understand about the pin and washer on the top of the poles. Understandable.

As far as the pegs and the resultant holes I have seen that first hand when out with the CF and the reaming troops got when the QM staff saw it gong on.

I was about talk about pegs in another post.

[Robin Craig]

At some point candles were issued. This mouse gnawed example is the only one I have, I am looking for another or few.

These holders were both designed I am told, to attach by means of the spring to the tent pole or be pressed into the ground. One is missing it's spring and I will buy something available locally

[Robin Craig]

extra picture from previous post

[charlie fitton]

I've never seen the candle holder...very much like

[James P]

Nice start at building up a Arctic Tent group. Find a WW2 heavy canvas sigs satchel and start filling it with the stuff like candle holders, candles, slip joint pliers, flat tip screw driver, Coleman stove generators, Coleman lantern mantles and generators, canvas sewing kit, roll each of gun tape and para cord. You have the orange ground disks for those poles, they tended to freeze to the ground and get overlooked when packing up in the dark. The small toboggan was for the five man Arctic tent and I think/recall the orange pole was a five man tent item also, the top end of the pole with the hole was as Rob L pointed out for a washer and pin, in practice we just left the pole attached though the puckered orifice at the tent apex to save time and effort. Also wrap para cord around the pole 5-6 times and tent apex and tie off tightly to further secure the pole to tent . The green harness is for either the five or ten man toboggan groups..........one size fits all.

[Robin Craig]

Rob, James and Charlie thanks for your comments,

I have a tent itself and once repaired I will show that.

Slowly assembling the items is the way any of us gather a collection, but also spread the word that we are looking for things.

I have a really nice piece currently under a purchase process.

A ten man toboggan so far eludes me, I have been offered one locally at a price I just can't afford but I know where it is and if I get enough work on my side job I may be able to put it under the Christmas tree . . .

[rob love]

Once you get the 200 pound toboggan, you will then need to get the nifty GPMG mount that clamps onto it and an M1919A4 (or C1 or C5A1 clone) GPMG along with T&E and pintle to finish up the ensemble.



I took a photo of the mount we have at work, and will try and post it tomorrow.

[Ed Storey]

There was a nice condition one for sale at the last Ottawa show - I believe it has found a home (not with me).

[rob love]

Here is a photo of the GPMG mount. I always thought they were a Canadian thing, but I have since seen American examples of what appear to be the same mount. I have also seen them using the normal M2 tripod head, although this one has a cast head in white.

[Robin Craig]

Rob I wondered how long it would take to bring that subject up.

As Ed Storey said there was one locally for sale at a show I did not attend and now is the in the possession of Mike Calnan who has generously offered it for me to copy.

It looks a fairly simple item, is the centre portion a manufactured part used elsewhere, I am not a big firearms person.

I am wondering if there is a winter warfare manual that shows a toboggan and all its constituent items.

I am thinking an aluminum shovel, the Coleman stove and lantern, the billy can set to name a few.

[rob love]

The center part is unique in the white version, but can be substituted with the regular black pressed steel version from a normal GPMG M2 tripod. I have owned several of these things over the years, and never had the cast white heads on them, so I can't explain what the real situation was. Mine mostly came from the local scrapyard, so perhaps the removal of the head was some kind of de-milling. It is also possible the the white ones broke and would be substituted with the black ones, which were removed in the end to go back onto the normal tripods. I was combat arms in the militia, but a mechanic for my regular force career. As a mechanic, my time hauling toboggans was quite limited, and I never saw those gun mounts in use. I think they may have been more of a curiosity. I did get stuck onto a sov-op up to Repulse Bay back around 96, and got to experience the coldest that Canada has to offer during a very long and cold week on the tundra.



Other things that went into the toboggan were the snow saw kit, and there was an actual arctic axe back in the day. The axe had a white fiberglass handle with an orange tip on the end. Even with the orange tip, it was the kind of a thing that if you placed it on the ground, it would be lost. I found a few of them in the springtime over the years.



Optional equipment were the mountain stoves, which we would drag along for extra heat. Once you had the coleman two burner going, the lantern going, and the single burner mountain stove, you could get the tent right up to 21°C. You did have to watch out for pink eye of course.



Naptha could either be in their original cans or else the little one gallon green plastic jerry cans. That, of course, would be in the toboggan as well.



I remember kit lists back in the day for the toboggan. The source may have been the winter warfare series of manuals.

[James P]

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Rob I wondered how long it would take to bring that subject up.

As Ed Storey said there was one locally for sale at a show I did not attend and now is the in the possession of Mike Calnan who has generously offered it for me to copy.

It looks a fairly simple item, is the centre portion a manufactured part used elsewhere, I am not a big firearms person.

I am wondering if there is a winter warfare manual that shows a toboggan and all its constituent items.

I am thinking an aluminum shovel, the Coleman stove and lantern, the billy can set to name a few.

We saw the "billy can" (read one gallon tin can from the mess) during Winter Warfare training, used it one day, then chucked it. Find a nice pot set cooking that nest into each other, source a couple of the green naptha cans, a mitt full of 12 inch steel spikes, axe, saw as Rob points out and you would have a cool collection. Never, not once, did I see the toboggan MG mount in use or training, in fact the first and only one I ever saw is the one on display at the CWM.

[Robin Craig]

James and Rob

I think the MG mount is a bit beyond me at the moment but is interesting.

I am so far grateful for all the pointers given and I am attempting slowly to get all the rest of the gear.

Accompanied by my 97 Skandic it should look good when eventually i get it together.

If anyone has any items I am always willing to buy items. My tahnks to Eric Booth for his generous donation of items.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by James P

Find a nice pot set cooking that nest into each other, .

Almost forgot about those. There is the frying pan with the folding handle that also acts as a lid for the pot, and all of it fits into the pressure cooker.
There is also a bent up piece of roundstock that allows you to hang the lantern off the tent pole.



You will also have to find some boxes of rations, and some rolls of the most industrial toilet paper known to man. (For that, you may well have to travel to one of the all-inclusive resorts in Cuba). And, perhaps a roll of the brown paper towel that is totally non-absorbent.



Another item we saw, but I never actually used in the field, are the special boxes with plastic bag in them to make the giant ice blocks that you would use to make defensive positions.



I have a couple of friends who have assembled the winter kit on the toboggan. It ends up taking up a lot of space. Keep looking fopr your stuff locally, and when the list gets shorter, I can likely find the majority of whats left at my favorite scrapyard©.

[James P]

One more item to add to the ever growing list of winter field stores is a arctic cam net (more for vehicles), and a white parachute canopy for the tent. The canopy and some branches is a surprisingly effective way to "cam up" a (green) arctic tent.

[Robin Craig]

I have an artic cam net now, one of several styles, the small holes all the same size over the whole piece. Need to get it out some day soon.

Eric also gave me the lantern hanger, forgot about that, picture attached.

The ice making blocks, yes I have worked with those, would love a few for display.

Just realised Eric also gave me the cooking set described. Again must get some pictures of that.

Again, credit to Eric Booth, I just bought this from ebay for big money. I have a bare scabbard for the same tools for swaps, again from Eric.

[James P]

Snow shoes and bindings are a "sometimes on Princess Auto" sale item to keep an eye open for.

[Robin Craig]

Ah yes I already have a pair of those.

I am very thankful for all the input being given

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by James P

Snow shoes and bindings are a "sometimes on Princess Auto" sale item to keep an eye open for.

Classic trail snowshoes made of magnesium and coated aircraft cable. These things will survive the apocalypse along with the cockroaches.

https://www.herooutdoors.com/canadia...es-w-bindings/

The second style of snowshoes are a tragedy only the Canadian procurement system could achieve. They are too small for the surface area required. I forget whether they are lighter or heavier, but they are shorter. Every QM guy I've asked say they break across the foot arch. Step wrong on a hidden log or bridge in a ditch, and they snap. The soldier is left with a birdsnest of coat hangers hanging off his feet. Will post more pictures and the NSN on the packing label when I find the pic.

The candle holder is a more complex one than I remember. Memory says there was a spring clamp that pinched onto the tent pole like a bicycle pants clip. Still flame orange, but different.

And, let's actually praise the system for buying those cylindrical Thermos brand stainless steel insulated bottles. Don't lose the stopper, but the best I've ever found for keeping tea or coffee warm.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

Did someone say arctic tent bag?

This one is brand new and I have no idea if it is for a 10-man or a 5-man, or if there is any difference.

I have had it for quite some time now. My original thinking was to use the canvas to cover something or other outside....about 4 houses ago!

Robin will get it.


regards
Darrell

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi again

I know this little baby was mentioned.

Ahh the "lunar lander"; best stove for a Lynx Crewman. I say this with a number of years in all three crew positions behind me.

Lit easily enough and when the atomizer was hot enough, it produced a flame hard to have blown out. Sure went through a tank of fuel though. With the legs out, it fit nicely between the three hatch rings on the vehicle. While static, everyone turned inward and whatever was in the pot set was shared around a circle.

Usually it was the JAFO (just another effing observer) who tended it. And if we had to beetle off, turned it off and it just sat there while we went.

I found the later Peak Mountain Stove to be just a little too fragile but we had Coyotes by then so.... BV.

regards
Darrell

[rob love]

The tent bag is applicable to either the 5 man or 10 man tent according to CGCM.

I have had one covering my wood splitter for years and years now, however it is starting to develop some ventilation holes.

[Robin Craig]

Darrell,

Thank you for the offer of the tent bag, I would like to accept that please. The CF express will convey that when buddies sprog comes west on Christmas leave.

Terry, I have the basic snow shoes and thank you for the warning on the product improved but useless version.

Rob I would like a stove or two like that, does your favourite store keep them?

Would the lunar lander stoves have gone in the toboggans or were they only Coleman two burners?

What about the aluminum shovels, were there CF spec ones or was that a local purchase of what I would call a grain shovel?

It is interesting all of this kit, I am itching to get the Skandic out soon but with plus zero for the next week it will stay in it's hutch for a bit longer.

Keep it coming all you folks. This is turning it a treasure trove of information.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Robin

Yeah, I'll get that enroute to you via your contact. Better use.

I am unsure if the mountain stove was Lynx kit or what. Likely it was though. I guess we'd just add it to the toboggan kit.

Don't forget a stove board. Always a giggle to see troops sink their stove.

Those water bags and cardboard boxes for them are still in use. Used them in live fire snow defence demo here a coupla winters ago. Often it was just a useless frozen black water jerry in the toboggan though.

The standard wood splitting ax is what I recall. Ice fishing on Ex in Pet, I asked two fellows what they were looking at down their hole. "Our Ax".

Regarding tent routine my suspenders had 3-4 big safety pins on them. Scoobie snack for first right answer why.

regards
Darrell