Calling Rob Love or others with info... Jeep F-head engine

[Bob Carriere]

Installing a Jeep engine (rebuilt for the Cdn forces in '86) for a friend.

Where is the timing mark for the F engine.... circa 54....just one valve under the valve cover. At 10 o'clock on the front of the timing cover seems to have a folded piece of steel that could have been the timing reference....but on the rebuilt it is folded flat against the cover behind the pulley and covered with the rebuild grey paint.

Would be nice to turn the engine by hand to set up number one cylinder top dead center but can't find any holes to crank it by means of the ring gear... like a Chev 6.

Grant will provide a shop manual soon to help us out......

On the Chev once you have TDC established and the sparkplug wires in proper order you can have someone crank the starter and slowly move the dizzy by hand until it catches..... refinements come later. Tried the same with the Jeep engine and all I could get was farts and barks...... so we have sparks but not running.

Puzzled!!!!

[rob love]

The pointer is the one you indicated. Earlier engines also had the ribs on the cover to indicate the timing. Timing, (if I remember correctly) is actually at 5°btdc. Seems to me some of the pulleys also had two marks on them, one for TDC and the other for the prescribed advance.



If you are re-using a distributor, make sure you lubricate the weights. Once running, you can accelerate the engine and you should get around 16-18 degrees of centrifugal advance. There is no vacuum advance...the two little lines for the distributor are for venting.



If you still have the shielded wiring, cut a 4" piece of regular ignition wire, stick it into the shielded #1 spark plug, and twist a little exposed core onto the little spring on the end of the shielded wire. You can then hook up yor inductive timing light. That is, unless you are a hardcore SMP guy and have the correct wire adapter.

[Bob Carriere]

I do have the adapter kit....... was very useful on the M37....now I get to use it again.

I will try to see if I can unfold the sheet metal marker from behind the pulley then give it some white paint ...... will look for notches on the pulley can't remember seeing any today.

Sprayed raw fuel into the intake and it sure backfired.....blew off the rubber hose to the breather....so we do have spark.....just at the wrong time/place.

Stay tuned.

[Bob Carriere]

Spent another 4 hours listening to pops and whomps and other spit back from the carb but will not start..... driving me nuts.

Engine is military rebuild and we heard it run last spring in the crate.

Oil pump was not removed so the timing should be the same. Checked voltage to dizzy, lightly dressed the points with a Nichalson ignition file, points spark nicely, contacts in cap and rotor were cleaned to shiny brass. Set engine at 5BTDC....... rotor pointing at number 1......... re-instal dizzy cap.....checked spark at plugs.......cranked pooff pooff. Disconnect fuel line at carb....crank engine....lots of fuel coming out......
I am having the owner crank it with ignition switch on while I slowly maneuver the dizzy back and forth within the range allowed for timing....... hoping that once it starts we just need to tighten up the dizzy nut after some final adjustment.

I have always used this method on the Chev 6.....once it runs I can adjust to its particular sweet spot.

What the hell am I missing.......?

Since we are working inside a wood heated garage I have restrained myself from using ether....my favorite gogo juice....... BUT have squirted raw gas in the intake...... poof poof..... fire ball but will not run.

I have been known to blow up M37 mufflers with ether....blows up real good and opens up the side seam wide open.

Why won't it run?????

[David Herbert]

Valves stuck open ?

David

[Grant Bowker]

Recalling your frustrations with getting a certain 261 Chevrolet in a Cab 11 to fire up, have you made not just 100% but 200%, 500% or even 1000% certain that both the oil pump and the distributor in the M38A1 have offset keys to prevent the distributor being installed 180 degrees out of phase?

[rob love]

Pull number one plug, and turn over the engine until you feel compression. Then continue turning the engine over (the fan will be fine) until you align the marks. Now you are on no1, and the rotor should point at the no1 position on the cap.

One oddball thing about the Jeeps are that the rotor travels counter clockwise. Very easy to mix no 2 and 3 wires, which will give the effects you describe.

The Willys is overall simplicity itself.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

My stupid question, is the ignition actually firing?

When I've had similar no run situation on the list to check is that all the plugs are firing.

Test tool is made up of a strip of steel with 6 holes with spark screwed into the strip, the strip makes it easy to get a good ground. Attach leads to the plugs and slowly turn the engine over. If all is good then all the plugs fire.

No spark hook coil lead to one plug and turn engine over should fire the plug.

No spark then step two provide separate 6-9-12 volts directly to coil and repeat.

Of late I've been having problems with the points causing no spark.


Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

.....1000% sure the tang is offset on the shaft and can only go in one way. since the pump was already indexed when the engine was running in the crate the dizzy as to line up.

Just to be sure, on Saturday, we removed the dizzy and tried to re insert at 180 off set and the pump would not go in .

Phil....... we cleaned up the points and verified that there was a healthy spark at the points when the engine is cranked over.........re-installed the rotor pointing approximately to the number one location...... re -instal the cap and checked for spark at the spark plugs by holding the disconnected water proof wire with the bare wire sparking on the block....all plugs were checked for spark. Tighten everything up and cranking only gave us some poof and woosh from the carburator.

We can easily crank the engine using a breaker bar and a socket on the front pulley to the timing mark not marked in yellow paint.

Aware that the dizzy turns counter clock wise..... so the rotor poins to plug wire number 1.... the next over to the left is wire no#3 than down to wire 4 and finally to wire 2.......1342 firing order......

When the rotor is inline with the upper RH corner and we turn the front pulley one full turn to the timing mark.......the rotor comes to stop at 180 degrees near number 4....one more turn of the pulley to the first timing mark the rotor now points to 5 BTDC in line with number 1 location.

I am now considering pushing the jeep outside. the confine of the heated garage and...... disconnect the exhaust flange....... and try spinning the engine with "ETHER".................

We have confirmed that the pump pushes fuel to the carb....

We have spark at the plugs

Engine is set at 5BTDC

Carbs sucks nicely when engine is cranked.

?????????????????

[David Dunlop]

Probably a long shot, Bob, but is your head gasket OK? Normal compression in all four cylinders?

David

[rob love]

Down to 4?


Number one should be on the bottom. Number 3 should be to the right of that, number four should be at the top, and number two is left of that.


Of course, it all will depend on where the oil pump got installed, but the photo below is pretty much the standard installation. With the 60 amp alternator, the single pin power supply connector will almost touch the alternator.


I'll check my own Jeep this morning and confirm the photo. Again, checking for compression and setting number one should do it.

[rob love]

If the timing is not the problem, then two things that I might add.

Make sure the plugs are dry. When they get soaked, they can act up. Pull them and you can dry them with a heat gun or light application of a propane torch.



Also, if you ran it on regular (ethanol) blend fuel last year, and that fuel was sitting in the carb, there are two little diaphragms on the carb that can get effected by the ethanol. They are held on with 4 screws each, and are on the front and back of the carb as it is located on the engine.



I have also seen crappy coils. The original autolite coils were good, but towards the end more and more of the stuff came from offshore. There were bad coils, and the caps had to have the holes enlarged to get them to fit in the covers. You can usually tell the bad caps as guys will have installed them with just 2 screws and the rotor will rub and break on the now offset cap.



I still think that your timing is the problem.



In all my years, I did see one engine break the phonelic timing gear under the front cover. But that was rare in my books. It was on an in-service Jeep at that. I used to hoard all Jeep parts back then, and the repair was done in about an hour or two. I worked faster back then....today that would likely be an all day event.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi David

Engine is military rebuilt and ran perfectly while sitting in the crate 6 months ago??????

[Bob Carriere]

Rob

You picture with the wire location is DIFFERENT..........

The answer is probably right there.......

I worked with the dizzy cap with the plug wires still on and never questioned their location as that is how, presumably they wereleft by the owner when he took them off the old engine.

In a nut shell.....my number one wire is where you have the number 4 and my number 4 is where the number one appears on your picture.......

We have been trying to start it 180 degrees out of sync........

Even the photograph of the dizzy he took as he was taking it apart shows the 180 out of sequence....... we have been setting the BTDC on the exhaust stroke.......

Will pull out the dizzy....turnt he engine to BTDC and re insert the dizzy whcih should index in the same position you showed in your picture.

Then find a hammer and take turns hitting ourselves over the head to the tune of the roaring engine.

How you a large beer and St Hubert chicken........

[Michael R.]

(paraphrased)
“Then find a hammer and take turns hitting ourselves over the head to the tune of the roaring engine.
Owe you a large beer and St Hubert chicken...”

avec ...
(Est-ce que ça va mieux, monsieur Carrier? ��)

[Bob Carriere]

.....those are not St Hubert Fries!!!!!

10 am tomorrow morning I will be at the guys house to try out the solution...

Bob C

[rob love]

Bob: You said the oil pump slot was offset, so you do not need to pull the distributor...just the 4 wires off the cover and re-install them to the order I have shown. Then set your timing mark to 5BTDC, and turn the distributor clockwise until the points are just opening.



Pulling the distributor will accomplish nothing, since the oil pump should be indexed from the re-builder. This is assuming nobody has pulled the oil pump.



I think just about anyone on this forum knows about the frustration when something doesn't work the way you think it should, and the obvious answer just doesn't present itself.Usually walking away for a while is the answer....I know I have awoken at 2 in the morning with the solution to some of these type of events.



Last note: Ixnay on the St Hubert-eh....the wife has still not forgiven me for having it (and even worse not appreciating it) back when we recovered those 25 pounders several years ago. I told her about your offer of St Huberts tonight, and she called me an ***-****.

[Bob Carriere]

So darn silly and simple solution.

I assumed that when he removed the dizzy from the old engine the numbered the tags he put on each wire were incorrectly....... says he does not recall.

Removed and re installed the wires in the right order....a bit of choke and "voila" runs like a charm

So a big St Hubert Thank you to Rob....... the picture was worth 1001 words. If I could mail out a full St Hubert dinner to your wife I would.

Thanks to everyone else who fired back and made me stop and think ......

I have one very happy neighbour.

Bob C


PS.... and for the record I HATE poutine....... and their fries are long and thin and crispy and the BBQA sauce is divine......... and I am on a 12 hour fast....YUCK!!!!!

PS....... and BIG thank you to Brian A. for supplying the rebuilt jeep engine.

[rob love]

Glad to hear it worked for you.



I should have you sent me a St Hubert's gift card so I could give it to my wife for Xmas, but it would just end up in her taking a trip to Quebec, and me having to fend for my self on the meals. It's a 60km roundtrip to the nearest A&W. Best to let sleeping dogs lay.