Lost HUP Pilot Model Found?

[RHClarke]

I was recently pointed toward a Facebook page by Brian Gough, who asked me if I sensed something different about some of the HUP photos posted at this page: https://www.facebook.com/ChevroletC8A/?ref=ts&fref=ts

On January 19th, P Bergman posted two photos of a particular HUP. I briefly glanced at the photos and something caught my eye, but other priorities lead me away from further investigation. Until Brian teased me with an interesting question. I reviewed the photos again and was somewhat stunned.

The first photo:


The second photo:


Thanks to P. Bergman for allowing me to post these photos on MLU.

This truck looks like a pilot model. When compared to my 1942 Pilot Model HUP, a few similarities come up:
- double barn doors in the rear
- thin metal window frames
- side "vent" windows near the front of the cab
- smaller driver and pax doors
- location of the hinges on the front doors

Some differences also show:
- late model wheel hub lifting rings on front and rear axles
- square front air observation hatch that looks like the hinged variety, with a OJC bar
- the rear of the body is not sloped - see next factory photo.


I have been told that there were two Pilot Models hand built by GM as proof of concept vehicles that were presented to the Army for approval. From these two models the Heavy Utility line of vehicles were produced.

Could this HUP be the long lost second Pilot Model? Any thoughts?

[Brian Gough]

Rob,

Thanks for doing the posting. I wasn't aware there was talk of a second pilot model.

I hope there will be some answers forthcoming or at least some good speculation on this mystery HUP. And then there is always the question of how they got out and into the system e.g. who owned them to get rid of them, GM or the military?

Brian

[Bob Carriere]

Both the pictures of the Kabelwerken truck has no rear pass. side door handles.
Inside view of the rear double door look different than your pilot.

Your Pilot did have door handles on all doors and so does the 3rd picture.

The 1/4 window in front of the kabelwerken truck looks smaller than your pilot model.

IF it was a second pilot model..... what was it doing in Europe????? sent to be evaluated by the Brits than sold as surplus.... but why on the Continent??

Cheers

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Brian Gough

Rob, Thanks for doing the posting. I wasn't aware there was talk of a second pilot model. I hope there will be some answers forthcoming or at least some good speculation on this mystery HUP. And then there is always the question of how they got out and into the system e.g. who owned them to get rid of them, GM or the military?

Brian

Brian, I am trying to find out when and where I heard about the second Pilot Model. At the time I said that it made little or no sense to produce two trucks when clearly one would do. But, who knows...?

[RHClarke]

From Bob in Hammond:

Both the pictures of the Kabelwerken truck has no rear pass. side door handles. Could have been removed.

Inside view of the rear double door look different than your pilot.Yes, but they were hand made so perhaps there was a second team tasked to produce a door with a different inside?

Your Pilot did have door handles on all doors and so does the 3rd picture. Third pic is from the factory -it is a shot of the Pilot Model

The 1/4 window in front of the kabelwerken truck looks smaller than your pilot model. I agree, but why would folks go to all that work to convert the doors and hinges?

IF it was a second pilot model..... what was it doing in Europe?????A great question. sent to be evaluated by the Brits As good a theory as any.than sold as surplus.... but why on the Continent??Would the Brits leave such an important task such as evaluation to us mere colonials? Or would they have been busy on other priorities?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Very interesting and well spotted!

But I would place my bets on a converted HUP. I have pictures of a C15 with coach built front doors like on the subject HUP so it has doors with proper sliding windows (photos to follow later). Likewise the single rear door could have been replaced by coach built doors to give better access.
Bear in mind that in post-war Holland there were a lot of coach built conversions to make surplus Army trucks better suited to post-war civilian needs.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Rob,

I think we have seen these pics on the forum before. The original images are from the Amsterdam city archives and were taken in 1953.

Here are the originals......the pictures can be enlarged quite a bit and might give some more clues.

http://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/beeldb...%5D=Geuzenveld

http://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/beeldb...%5D=Geuzenveld

http://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/beeldb...%5D=Geuzenveld

source:http://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/


Alex

[Barry Churcher]

I am inclined to agree with Hanno. If you look closely at the photos that Alex refers to and blow them up, the rear doors really look to have a wooden frame.
Barry

[cliff]

looks like a coach built body using a stand GS as a base. Clues are the horizontal body line at the rear corner at the window bottom continuing around to the rear door. Plus a further body line across the roof at the rear of the front doors.

I think I can faintly see another body line across the rear roof at the rearmost point of the windows.

[George McKenzie]

The third picture was taken in western Canada .You can see the local hotel with the grain elevator in the back ground .Most rural towns had buildings like this .

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

But I would place my bets on a converted HUP. I have pictures of a C15 with coach built front doors like on the subject HUP so it has doors with proper sliding windows (photos to follow later).

Here are the coach built doors on the C15:

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here are the coach built doors on the C15:

Hanno, Do you know if there was a post war (1950 onwards) Dutch motor vehicle law that directed that vehicles have proper doors fitted with windows? If so, then there should be lots of examples of coach built doors on left over or ceded CMPs - in theory at least. I ask only because I surmise that it would take a bit of work by a good body man to change the doors and add the side front windows. Why do it unless directed to do so? Or perhaps it was a necessity given the damp weather one may find in Holland during three seasons? Adding a weather tight door and good window certainly would address weather issues.

These two theories (law and weather) may have pushed the owner of the HUP pictured in the first posting in this thread to add the doors and windows. The fact that they look somewhat like those doors and windows found on the Pilot Model sparked my curiosity.

Pilot Model Door

Pilot Model Windows

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Richard

Suspect that you hit the explination, for the work to install good side windows on HUPs or CMPs in general, weather. If you add to that the truly poor visiblity of the standard slip in side curtains you have the major reason for the effort.

As not many of us really spend much time driving out CMPs in winter, we don't appreciate that the side curtains, are not really air tight. But the bigger issue is that your visibility to the sides is limited during the day and forget it at night. Of course in comparison to say a Jeep or open cab CCKW with top and side curtains any Pattern 13 CMP is luxury.

Over the years I have had the occasion to drive my HUP in very cold weather or heavy blowing rain for long trips and it has to be really really cold or rain blowing from the side before I will stop and put the side curtains in the front doors. The Pat 13 designers did a pretty good job of designing the cab so that in moderate to heavy rain with no wind very little comes in the front door windows.

The other possible explination for the effort to install better windows on HUPs being used as work vehicles is security for tools stored inside.

Cheers Phil

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by RHClarke

Do you know if there was a post war (1950 onwards) Dutch motor vehicle law that directed that vehicles have proper doors fitted with windows? If so, then there should be lots of examples of coach built doors on left over or ceded CMPs - in theory at least. I ask only because I surmise that it would take a bit of work by a good body man to change the doors and add the side front windows. Why do it unless directed to do so? Or perhaps it was a necessity given the damp weather one may find in Holland during three seasons? Adding a weather tight door and good window certainly would address weather issues.

Rob,

There were no laws necessitating ex-military vehicles to be converted. After the war there were hardly any motor vehicles left, as the country had been robbed of anything valuable by the Germans.
So people running a business had to get a permit which gave them the right to buy a surplus military truck from the stock left at Deelen and other Canadian Army collection yards. There was not a lot to choose from, it was either taking the next in line or nothing.
Many vehicles were converted, chassis lengthened, other bodies fitted etc. to make them fit for purpose and then they were driven to death until newly built vehicles came onto the market.

The surviving truck was used by a garage in Lommel in the North of France, so conversions were not a typical Dutch thing, although CMPs were used more here than in other places because of the large Canadian dumps. Cabs were converted to increase crew comfort - The Netherlands has a sea climate with precipitation throughout the year - or possibly replace damaged cabs. These vehicles were used for transport not only locally, but on transport lines throughout the country and into the rest of Europe. I think the similarity stems from the fact that common coach building practices were applied building your prototype and the post-war conversions.

Here are some more pictures from other threads on here like Dutch CMPs and CMPs from all over postwar.

Coach-built doors on Cab 13:


All new coach-built cab fitted:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Now with updated links and pictures attached - make sure to check the sources and download the full-size scans if you wish


Source: https://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/afbeelding/5293FO001526


Source: https://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/afbeelding/5293FO001523

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Rob,

I think we have seen these pics on the forum before. The original images are from the Amsterdam city archives and were taken in 1953.

Here are the originals......the pictures can be enlarged quite a bit and might give some more clues.

http://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/beeldb...%5D=Geuzenveld

http://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/beeldb...%5D=Geuzenveld

http://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/beeldb...%5D=Geuzenveld

source:http://beeldbank.amsterdam.nl/


Alex