Staghond MG mounting issues

[daninnm]

This is a gun issue for the Staghound restoration we are doing. The No. 523 Stag was apparently equipped with a coax gun that was NOT A STANDARD M1919!? The rear mount attachment to the M24 37mm gun mount that is supposed to hold the mount pin for the M1919 does not fit a M1919---that is the two “ears” of the pin are not in the right place to work with a M1919.
We suspect that the Australians used some different MG as their coax gun (a Breda???) We don’t know and cannot find NY reference or pictures. Anyway, the casting that is on right side of the M24 is not correct and I have been told that the Grant Tank mount for its 37mm gun has the correct bolt-on attachment part that works with the M1919 mount pin.
QUESTION: anyone have that part that would “RENT IT” so I can have one molded from wax and then cast in steel or aluminum???? A set of accurate dimensional photos might also work since I can make my own ‘lost wax’ piece to send to a caster.
Thanks! Comments?
Dan in NM
505-269-2056

[motto]

The Australian army used the 8mm Besa in some of its armoured vehicles around the time the Staghound was in service. That may explain the non standard mounting.

David

[Mike Cecil]

Dan,

The Australian Army used the Staghound up until the early 1970s (Reserve Armoured Corps units). The Armoured Corps was the only Corps to persist with the .30-06 cartridge all the way up until around 2005, when the M113A1 with T50(Aust) turret with the .50-.30 combination was finally retired. I understand your Staghound is ex-Australia, one of two exported about 13 years ago.

In 1962, all the M1919A4's still in Aust service were converted to the British configuration to fire from the open bolt. The kits, at 20 GBP each, were supplied from the UK, with conversion carried out locally. Total cost of kits was around 18,000 GBP. The new designation was L3A3 and L3A4. Calibre remained as .30-06. (ie .30 cal)

I can only think the changeover/modifications caused the alterations you are seeing - cannot think of any other reason why the mount in the Staghound would be 'non-standard', though I have not seen any evidence that the Centurion fixed or flex mounts were altered as part of the changeover from the M1919A4 to the L3A3 and L3A4, so maybe that is not the reason.

Motto is correct regarding some Aust AFVs using the Besa. The 7.92 mm BESA finally went out of service in the Australian Army in the late 1950s when Centurions were converted from Mk3 to Mk5. The Besa was not used in the Staghound, but had been used in Matilda up till 1955, and in Centurion Mk.3 until the late 1950s.

Mike

[daninnm]

Great info... ..yep the Stag was bought out of the Sydney Museum and imported....it is now in the CSCI Trust and being restored. The Trust will be trading it or selling when completed. Also purchased were 10,000# of used and NOS parts for stag drivetrain and interior. We are putting all NOS back on where available....including even the "clutch head" screws!!!
I am attaching the pictures of the M24 37mm main gun mount that has the coax M1919 gun on the right side....note that the piece mark "D" has the two 'mount pin' EARS forward of the bolts to the side of the recoil cylinder.....that is as it should be for a standard M1919 mount attachment.
BUT...the actual part that was attached to the side of the recoil cylinder (as it came from Australia) has the EARS to the REAR of the mount bolt position on the part...(see the attached pictures of the actual part that was bolted where the "D" part should be). This does two things. 1 the cartridge bag and shell catcher will not mount to this configurations. 2 not sure if the M1919 will then mount to the coax gun mount (I still need to try that!?). The three other pictures are clearly not the same as the "D" part shown in the ORD manual for the M24 mount to the stag.
Can you be of any help finding the "D" part of me? If i could borrow one - I could have a repro cast from aluminum that would machine easily and work exactly as intended for the M1919 Browning. More than happy to trade stag parts I have as spares for the proper item.
I really thought the BESA was coax gun used for that pictured attachment fitting - guess not if it was never used in the stag?! Could this have been a field mod???

[motto]

The forward mount that is pictured is definitely not a lash up, it has been cast and carefully machined and indicates the mounting of an MG other than the M1919 Browning. It's unlikely that the mounting was changed as part of the conversion to L3A3/L3A4 configuration
Is it possible that the documentation you looked at Mike is not complete.
Maybe reference to other Australian owned Staghounds or the mounting dimensions of a Besa could clarify the situation.
I am trying to contact John Belfield to see if he knows anything.

David

[Tony Smith]

Can you measure the inside distance across the two machined faces and the diameter of the pin? There is a possibility of it being either the Tank Vickers MG (low likelihood), or either the .303 or 7.62mm versions of the BREN.

L4A4 Bren (7.62mm conversion) was used by Armoured Corps in Aus (but not Inf), although this would seem an unlikely choice for a co-ax MG.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Dan,

....
In 1962, all the M1919A4's still in Aust service were converted to the British configuration to fire from the open bolt. The kits, at 20 GBP each, were supplied from the UK, with conversion carried out locally. Total cost of kits was around 18,000 GBP. The new designation was L3A3 and L3A4. Calibre remained as .30-06. (ie .30 cal)

....

Mike

As a matter of curiousity, do you have any idea how the conversion worked?

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

As a matter of curiosity, do you have any idea how the conversion worked?

I can recommend Canada's own Collector Grade Publications, which among many other great books has published a 4 Volume, 2000 page treatise on the Browning MG. Vol 2 covers the British conversion in detail, amongst many others.

http://www.collectorgrade.com/bookshelf2.html

[Mike Cecil]

Tony,

If you have that publication, does it include a mounting change in the conversion? If not, we can discount that as the reason for Dan's mystery mount.

Dave: the 7.92 mm Besa Mk.1 and Mk.2 used a square clamping bracket with a vertical recoil restraining bolt on the left side: there was no provision for a horizontal pin.

Mike

[motto]

Spoke to JB a couple of days ago and as far as he could remember the co-axial MG for the Staghound was only ever the .30 Cal Browning. Unfortunately his armourer buddy who knew all the details of such things passed on a few years ago.
With the Besa being out of the question it remains a mystery what was used in that odd mounting.
The L3A3/L3A4 seems unlikely for as far as I can tell the mounting pins pass through the receiver of the M1919 and so would make it impossible to alter their position.
Maybe the answer could be found in the Collectorgrade books mentioned by Tony but not if they eliminate the L3A3/L3A4

David

[rob love]

Could the ,main gun/sleigh and this bracket have been off a different piece of equipment that used a different co-ax?