R.A.F. Ground Equipment Blue - paint specification

[jambo]

Hello,

Hopefully somebody out there can help or guide us.

Currently we are restoring a small 2ft gauge railway coach, numbered 275, which was used at R.A.F. Fauld in Staffordshire for carrying personnel on the internal narrow gauge railway. It has had many, erroneous as it turns out, liveries applied whilst in preservation but we are now looking to portray this item in a more historic and accurate context.

We believe that originally, or at least some time in its service history, it carried R.A.F. Ground Equipment Blue livery.

Does anybody know a BS reference for this paint? Where can the paint be acquired from etc?

Thank you in advance for any information.
James Smith
Amberley Working Museum RailGroup

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi James,

The thread RAF Vehicle Colors might be of help. Just like their vehicles, I doubt the RAF painted their rolling stock blue during the war.

Regards,
Hanno
paint schemes for CMP trucks

[Mike Kelly]

hi James

I have an original WW2 RAF test set , for radio gear . It is housed in a wooden box finished in its original paint , with the AM crown symbol still visible . It is a medium-dark blue with a slight grey tinge. I will take a few pics for you and post them on this forum .

The darker finish inside the lid is probably the original finish , the outside paint has faded-oxidised to some extent and looks more blue/grey .

Mike in Australia.

[Richard Farrant]

James,

I reckon it is on British Standard chart BS381 and listed as 633 RAF Blue Grey. Any paint supplier will mix this for you, coach paint or nowadays called synthetic I think.

Take a look at the colour chart on this web page;
http://www.e-paint.co.uk/BS381%20Col...Type=&pFinish=

regards,
Richard

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hello James
A small research article I picked up along the way. It doesn't tell you the B.S number but gives an indication of what went on.
Bob

[Maurice Donckers]

I agree with Hanno , during WW 2 they used the ordinary oD Brown , black camouflage coulors .
Before WW2 they used a matt Blue grey coulor, and after WW 2 they were repainted in a shiny Blue with black mudguards.
Maurice

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
A small research article I picked up along the way. It doesn't tell you the B.S number but gives an indication of what went on.

As posted by Colin McGregor Stevens:

RAF/RCAF vehicle colours June 21 2001, 10:07 AM

RAF vehicles:

[Pre-1941 - Blue/grey. About time of the Battle of Britain (summer 1940) they started camouflage painting them.]

Blue/grey. From Aug 1941 - Khaki Green No. 3 on top of which a disruptive pattern of paint Nobels Tarmac Green No. 4 or Light Green No. 5.

From August 1942 - Camouflage Green No. 3 on top of which a disruptive pattern of paint Dark Tarmac No. 4 is applied.

From December 1942 - Paint Camouflage Brown Special No. 2 on top of which a disruptive pattern of paint Dark Brown is applied.

From September 1943 - Paint Anti-Gas M. T. [Motor Transport] Brown Special No. 2 on top of which a disruptive pattern of paint Dark Brown is applied.

This was soon changed to paint Anti-Gas Olive Drab on top of which a disruptive pattern of paint Black matt finish is applied.

From September 1944 - Paint Olive Drab without any disruptive pattern.

In 1944 upper surfaces of any vehicles regularly used within the landing area of airfields are to be painted yellow.

Until the end of the war an area of Gas Detector paint irregular in shape approximately 36 inches square to be applied to each front mudguard or a panel so placed as to be visible by the driver.

From April 1946 Blue/Grey on bodywork with wings (fenders) , chassis and valances in paint semi gloss Black.

ALL RAF vehicles to be camouflage painted except Air Council and A.Os. C. (Air Officers Commanding), vehicles hired locally and Works Department vehicles working on aerodromes.

NOTE: Changes were gradual, as vehicles needed repainting.

RCAF basically followed the British colour schemes as far as I know. IN Canada they did not go to the camouflage painting scheme, but had the black fenders.

Markings is another subject.

Main reference for the above: R.A.F. Colours and Markings by Tony Hayter and Robin Hickmott in WINDSCREEN Vol. 5 No. 2 (1982) (UK club, now the MVT, publication).

Also, the book Wheels of the RAF- Vehicles of the Flying Services through Two World Wars by Bruce Robertson (Patrick Stevens, Cambridge, 1983) reportedly is worth getting if you're interested in this subject. Mike Starmer's (British camouflage colour guru) says it is a good book; "one serious drawback is the author does not quote the true designations for the colours, only descriptive notes like green and earth. RAF vehicles were painted the same as Army vehicles so refer to www.mafva.com resources for accurate schemes and colours."

H.

[Tony Smith]

I have a colour chip card for RAAF aircraft and vehicle colours, but there is no mention of a RAF Blue-Grey or just Blue-Grey, so it possibly dates from after the period that RAF Blue-Grey was discontinued. There is no date on the card.
The text states: "The Camouflage Coverings are applied by spray after thinning with equal volumes of enamel thinners, and two coats are necessary to ensure complete coverage and achieve the desired result. Aircraft/Vehicle markings are applied manually by brush, and the material is used straight from the can. These coverings form the finishing coat of a system utilising Red Oxide Base and Base covering Aluminium which conforms to the intent given in RAAF specification K5."


Source: Colour chart help

[jambo]

Thank you very much everyone for your help, it has been most helpful for our project.

James Smith.

[ted angus]

RAF Ground Equipment Blue was still in use when I joined up in 1964. As the name suggests it was used on all Non- MT vehicle equipment. RAF trains were included in the classification Ground equipment. The colour was Traffic Blue, to BS 381 (1931 later additions) tint No 69. I understand the colour was given a new title in the BS 381 1964 revision but to date I have never been able to positively convert it . However from colour chip charts my best guess is the current BS 381C tint 109 Middle Blue.

[Colin R]

During the war the 'official' colours went along the same lines as army.
I can look up the RAF info for the time if you wish.

[ted angus]

Colin, thanks for the offer but I have all the codes for RAF MT colours back to 1937. When I joined in 1964 it was fairly easy to pick the information from the Air Publications. Having been an avid vehicle modeller since birth I was always watching out for info and jotting down notes, something I did with great regularity for the following 39 years.
Seeing the term "RAF Ground Equipment Blue" --- to paint a train drew my attention to the request, as few people realise that RAF Blue /Grey BS 381c tint 633 was confined to MT vehicles, equipment categorised as ground equipment was painted a totally different colour. All replies to date had directed towards Blue /Grey when in fact narrow gauges trains were normally "Ground Equipment Blue; the colour entitled "Traffic Blue" in the 1931 BS 381 (later additions). To date I have never been able to locate a document which give the renumberings and retitling of colours to BS 381 in the 1964 revision. I have attached a photograph (hopefully) which gives an excellent comparison between RAF Blue /Grey and Ground Equipment Blue ( officially called Traffic Blue). regards
TED

[Rich Payne]

Ted, I'm extremely impressed with your "prehistoric" research (is that the correct name for researching something before it passes into history ?)

Have you ever seen anything detailing how R.A.F "census" numbers were issued to vehicles from 1939 - 45 and do you know if there is any surviving documentation relating to these contracts ?

My reason for asking (with my special interest in motorcycles) is that with the exception of a few photographs, most references to these vehicles seems to have disappeared, in contrast to surviving War Department records.

Rich

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne

Have you ever seen anything detailing how R.A.F "census" numbers were issued to vehicles from 1939 - 45 and do you know if there is any surviving documentation relating to these contracts ?

This is something I am also interested in, with regard to a 1944-45 RAF staff car that was supplied under a RAF / Air Ministry Contract. I only have Contract number and Chassis number, think the car was demobbed around 1951-2. Any assitance or leads would be welcome.

[ted angus]

Gents afraid not; visited Hendon long before the "cards" were accessible to visitors the answer there was let us know please if you find them ! Spoke several times to Air Historical branch, Spoke and visited colleagues at Wyton /Brampton from where current specialist vehicles are managed and procured, as they have lots of old stuff on microphiche. Spoke dozens of times to Chilwell, interrogated guys who years previous were involved in MT fleet management at Group and Command HQs. The only documents I ever found were cards at Hendon on which the individuals vehicle's pre 1949 reg number was recorded.
I wish !!
TED

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by ted angus
The only documents I ever found were cards at Hendon on which the individuals vehicle's pre 1949 reg number was recorded.

Hello Ted,

Welcome to the forum. We had contacted Hendon and realised if it were an aircraft, no problem, but MT, well! It is the pre-1949 number that I am seeking, for a 1944 Humber car, it could have then been re-numbered for the 00 AA 01 type sequence prior to disposal, but with the RAF there is a problem, because they reused these numbers over the years so a real nightmare to trace back. The only hope is to find photographs of the particular vehicle type and get a number close to that, not authentic, but no choice.

[ted angus]

Richard, thanks for the welcome, I can assure you 100% the RAF never reused a reg number, although this is believed to be the case in the RN. But beyond any doubt not in the RAF.
The reg numbers in the format 00AA00 were issued from hand written ledgers; each letter pair had a seperate ledger. Some numbers were never issued due mainly to clerical errors, i.e. turning over 2 pages instead of one. In general they gradually worked chronologically through from e.g. 00 AG 00 to 99 AG 99,
However if for some reason, a block of numbers was missed they were sometimes used at a later date. This was the case with one of the batches of Alvis MK6 crash tenders they received 03 AG ** when the numbers allocated were up to 23 AG ** .
So if you know the post reg of the subject car you can be sure it was the only vehicle ever to have that number, the next course of action would be to contact Hendon museum to see if the card is there, if it is you can purchase a photocopy. this may have recorded on it the car's original number. A word of warning The last time I was at Hendon viewing cards many were not sitting in their correct order in the card trays some were actually in the wrong drawers this is because some individuals given access on a personal visit had not bothered to put them back in the correct order. Regards TED

[Richard Farrant]

Thanks Ted,

It was the number issued previous to the 00AA00 format, that I am seeking. The RAF vehicles during the War period, often carried them in the same locations as a civvy reg. plate would be, but they were of the format, RAF123456, painted white on black.

[Colin R]

About the cards at Hendon, if you would like me to look something up let me know, work at the place so not too difficult..

[Keith Orpin]

Richard,
Having followed this thread with interest, prompted me to look though some old litrature. I have just come across a sales catalogue from a dispersal sale at Mount Farm in Oxfordshire, during September 1946. Detailed therein are vehicle types, along with their WD or Reg number. Having made a list of all of the ex RAF vehicles sold over 3 days, of which there are some very interesting vehicles listed and their RAF numbers, it would appear that vehicles entering RAF service, were basically issued any number, and not from a block of allocated numbers for vehicle types. As an example, there were two Hillman 10hp 4 Dr saloons sold, one carried the number RAF 14865, whilst the other car was numbered RAF 69760, and a third Hillman 10hp (albeit a Utility) RAF 102625. Another car, a Vauxhall 25 hp 4 Dr saloon, was numbered RAF 3071, whilst a Morris 8 2 Dr saloon was number RAF160247. 3 Standard 12 hp Utiliies carried the numbers RAF 53759, 10520 and 10990. My guess is that the smaller numbers were earlier vehicles, whilst the higher numbers were for the later vehicles. Having said all that unfortunately, there are no numbers for Humber cars.
Not sure if this helps or not
Keith

[rewdco]

Originally posted by Keith Orpin
Having made a list of all of the ex RAF vehicles sold over 3 days, of which there are some very interesting vehicles listed and their RAF numbers, it would appear that vehicles entering RAF service, were basically issued any number, and not from a block of allocated numbers for vehicle types.

Keith,

What an interesting find! Would there by any chance be any motorcycles in this list? I am especially interested in the Royal Enfields which were used by the RAF (see also http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...&threadid=9187 ), and my good friend Richard Payne is looking for RAF Norton numbers. Could this list be (the start of) our enigma machine?

Cheers,
Jan

[Keith Orpin]

Jan,
Unfortunately not, no motorcycles at all !. The smallest vehicles appear to be the odd couple of jeeps, and a number of british cars, the listing then goes right up to vehicles like a Crossley Tanker 6x4 and 3 Studebaker Tractor unit complete with 7 Ton trailor. There are a few CMP's mentioned namely, Ford V8 3 Ton 4x4 GS Truck (2 off), and a Ford 30cwt GS Truck. In all, there were 29 ex RAF vehicles out of a total of 2,300 sold over a 3 day period. Most of the vehicles carry their British Army serial number, a few had RN numbers, and the odd USA reg number is also there. I've just noticed at the top of the catalogue, that this was the second week's sale, so there may have been motorbikes in the first week's sale. It's still fascinating reading, as it has the prices along side each of the lots. As an example, a Willys jeep, with WD number M4648842 was sold for £10.00, and a Chevrolet 15cwt GS Truck was sold for £20.00 !. You also come across items like a Hillman 10hp 4 dr saloon with a WD number of USAX11226
On the motorbike front, we will have to keep looking guys
Keith

[rewdco]

Keith,

Thank you very much for your reply!

By the way, there is a little video on British Pathé about a similar auction in 1946, this one is for ex NFS vehicles. The British Pathé number is 1380_15.

Cheers,
Jan

[Mike Starmer]

BS 69 Traffic Blue in the1930 edn. was withdrawn in 1948. There has been no match or equivalent since then. The wartime AMOs for vehicles colouring have BS 33 Blue-grey officially till 1941 but photographs show vehicles in France and south of England 1940 in two disruptive colours which at present are unknown. The basic colour in 1941 was Khaki Green 3. This was replaced by SCC 2 brown, it is called brown special in AMO. Special or P.F.U. indicates ready mixed for use. Dark Tarmac 4 is dark blue-grey shade which was not much used.

[ted angus]

Hi Mike a bit of cross purpose here. The original post is asking about "Ground Equipment blue" a totally different animal to RAF Blue /Grey (tint 33 later 633). Demarcation within the RAF between MT vehicles and other non-airborne equipment known from that date as Ground Support Equipment (GSE) took place in 1948. The demarcation took place as due to its growing complexity a new trade group was set up in the RAF to deal with GSE and a suitable official given to it. (Prior to that date all non airborne equipment used outdoors was all painted as has been stated in the thread .) At the time (1948) RAF Blue /Grey was reintroduced as the standard UK colour for MT vehicles. However, the equipment now categorised as Ground Support Equipment was painted in "Traffic Blue". At the discretion of Station's O.C. Operations the tops of equipments and MT vehicles, primarily used on airfields was to be painted gloss golden yellow, a measure first introduced in the mid war years. Circa 1968 MT & GSE used solely on an airfield was to be painted overall golden yellow with the exception of fire/crash vehicles and ambulances. However Blue /grey for MT and Traffic Blue for GSE continued in use for items not solely used on the airfield. Noteworthy although much GSE & MT did go all yellow, repainting was to be on an as required basis and was not completed before we had yet another policy change and the IRR matt Green was introduced. You say traffic Blue 69 ceased in 1948 ? it was still called traffic blue in RAF Air publications well into the early 1970s, The paint boffins who used to reside at RAF Brampton were adamant in response to my nagging that it was the 1964 review that finally saw it renamed and renumbered.
We must also consider even if it had disappeared from the BS issued in 1948 any contractor looking for what were in those days lucrative contracts would simply produced it to the spec in their records and quite legally could have identified it as BS 381 (1930 ) tint 69.
regards TED ps see the photo I posted earlier in the thread which is a perfect comparison of the 2 colours.

[ted angus]

The original request asked the RAF Ground Equipment blue for an ex RAF railway item.
I have now established that BS 381c (1931 addition) tint 69 Traffic Blue did indeed survive beyond the exercise to give 3 numerals . I have now established that it remained on BS 381c until declared obselescent in 1980 as BS 381c tint 169.

[Ian Grieve]

Originally Posted by Keith Orpin

Richard,
Having followed this thread with interest, prompted me to look though some old litrature. I have just come across a sales catalogue from a dispersal sale at Mount Farm in Oxfordshire, during September 1946. Detailed therein are vehicle types, along with their WD or Reg number. Keith

Keith Orpin

Fascinating to hear you have sales catalogues for Mount Farm auctions in September, 1946. On August 19, 1946, the London “Times” newspaper advertised for the M.O.S. 10 day vehicle sales at Mount Farm, Dorchester, on 3 – 6, 10 – 13 and 17 - 18 September, 1946, for 2,300 vehicles. The catalogue was in 3 sections for each week. The advert says vehicles included jeeps and amphibious jeeps.

Question 1 - Are you able to say from your catalogue how many amphibious jeeps there were in total at the sale/s?

Another sale (1,600 vehicles), and possibly the next, was advertised on January 13, 1947, for 27 – 29 January and 3 – 5 February, 1947, ie 6 days and included jeeps and amphibians (these could have been amphibious jeeps).

A sale (1,500 vehicles) was advertised on December 15, 1947, for 6 – 9 and 13 – 14 January, 1948, ie 6 days and included jeeps and amphibian carriers (these could have been amphibious jeeps or DUKW’s, even Terrapin).

A further sale (2,000 vehicles), called the 10th, was advertised on February 23, 1948, for 6 – 9 and 13 – 16 April, 1948, ie 8 days and included jeeps. No mention of amphibious jeeps was made in this sale. There must have been other sales as well at Mount Farm.

I have records of 7 R.N. amphibious jeeps being sold at 3 separate M.O.S. sales at Elstow Storage Depot, Bedfordshire, in 1950 and 1951.

I see big M.O.S. vehicle sales at other depots like;
• Great Missenden
• Byram Park
• Thorp Arch
• Ruddington
• Toddington
• Bentley Wood
• Etc
There is quite a list more with significant numbers of vehicles, however, none of them mentioned amphibious jeeps. Obviously, though, other sales had amphibious jeeps.

Question 2 to the Forum - Has anybody copies of any of these sales catalogues, particularly with amphibious jeep sales?

It is all Sherlock Holmes stuff 65 years after the event, but most interesting. One only wonders whether people took photos of these vast numbers of vehicles.

Ian

[Keith Orpin]

Hi Ian,
The only catalogue I have, is for the second week's sale on September 10th to 13th, 1946. It list's 2300 commercial and other vehicles of many makes and types (that's what it says on the front !). Having just trawled though it, there were only 2 jeeps listed and sold during the 3 day sale. One was a Willys jeep, WD No M4648842, and the other on was for a Ford jeep, WD Reg No M4678563. No mention of any amphibious vehicles at this particuler sale. It's hard to imagine the amount of vehicles coming and going to this depot, as all of the roads around Mount Farm would have been small B roads, at the time, would have been a wonderful sight !. Maybe other members can chip in with more info
Keith

[Ian Grieve]

Keith

Thank you for your reply. It would have been amazing to see the vehicles running about. Byram Park had auction with 9,000 vehicles, etc, and many of the other parks with up to 3,000 vehicles at a time. Numbers were absolutely staggering.

I would dearly like to see/hear of catalogues with amphibious jeep sales at any of the parks.

Ian

[Stuart Filmer]

Keith,

I am trying to find out about the history an old WW2 fire engine (1921 Rolls Royce Silver Ghost) which I believe was sold at Mount Farm at an auction. So I am trying to find these sales catalogues to view.

In my research I had an email which suggested that someone saw the listing at the National Archives. I have looked through the archives on line and can't find a listing, although I found some for the Elstow auctions, which are held at the Bedfordhire archives.

Would it be possible to let me know what headings are on the catalogue or who where the auctioneers, so I can try a re-search at the archives. It may also help Ian Grieve, as I could post the document numbers if I find them.

Thanks in advance

Stuart