CFR Request Thread

[Ed Storey]

With a CFR I can at least tell from where the vehicle was disposed of.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

With a CFR I can at least tell from where the vehicle was disposed of.

Ed,

Is there a way to confirm how many M113's were purchased and in what year?

Dan.

[rob love]

The data summaries will have that. There were two major purchases (65/66 and around 1986) and a minor purchase with the bird gunner's systems a little later.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by rob love

The data summaries will have that.

Thanks, Rob. And where would i find these data summaries?

Dan.

[rob love]

Yeah, I guess that is a little tougher if you are not currently connected to the military. Most units have now disposed of hard books and are strictly electronic, so you are probably looking at museums if they grabbed the CFTOs as the paper copies were diposed of. I have been doing that at the Shilo museum, and there is a wealth of info in those old CFTOs, some dating back to the second world war. I collected a lot of them myself over the years, but have been starting to bring them in to the museum and incorporating them into that collection. There may be others here like Ed, who have copies of the data summaries. You normally would have to look up each variant separately, so you would need to look at the C30570 series for the earlier vehicles, the C30670 series for the A2 series, and the C30770 series for the TLAVs. The variants of each generation of 113 will be near the parent numbers I have given. Thing like Lynx, M577A1, ARVL, A1 pioneer dozer will be in the 30570 to 30580 range...later models will be in the later ranged of numbers.



There are also the ELDs, (Equipment Logistic Directives) which will have a lot of information like this, but those are harder to come by. I didn't even know they existed until I got a partial set at the museum from one of the units as they were disposing of their manuals.

[Ed Storey]

As Rob stated, a lot of information about specific Canadian vehicles can be found in the Data Summaries although the researcher must keep in mind that the document format has evolved over time and the early summaries do not contain the contract numbers or vehicle numbers. The Data Summaries are a good start but they do not tell the whole story and need to be corroberated with other documents in order to compile a complete picture of all of the details for a specific vehicle type.

The M113 series is very convoluted and Clive Law very kindly published my book "The M113A1 in Canadian Service" in 2014 ISBN 978-1-927822-02-9.

In that book I state that Canadian purchased 442 M113A1s in 1964 and 352 in 1965. With respect to the M548 Cargo Carrier, Canada bought 80 in 1966 and another 30 in 1983. Canada bought 50 M577A1 Command Post vehicles in 1965 and 1966 and an additional 10 in 1986.

Work had begun on the M113A2 book but was stopped following Clive's passing.

[Dan Martel]

Ed, thanks for the numbers. They correlate with the numbers given by Maloney in his book 'War Without Battles.'

I have some documents which provide the numbers of the M113 family sent to Germany. Most are planning documents which were anticipating the space required to accommodate all the new vehicles.

CBUE S5025-8 (EME) Accommodation Planning 7 Apr 64
2. Aim
The aim of this study is to produce recommendations respecting changes in accommodation for maintenance and repair of equipment within 4 CIBG/CBUE Garrison Stations necessitated by the introduction of M113A1 Carriers and A Tk Coy and bearing in mind that the Service Battalion will be formed.
Annex A (revised Jul 64) Basic Data and Information
1. Quantity of Vehicles
No distinction is drawn between the M113A1 and the M577A1 for maintenance purposes except insofar as size may affect accommodation. Basic information on the vehicles is as follows:
a. No of Vehicles
(1) Bde HQ 2
(2) Recce Sqn 6
(3) Fd Regt 11
(4) Fd Sqn 7
(5) Inf Bn (each) 68
(6) A Tk Coy 27
(7) Maintenance Pool 35
Total 292

Then came word of an additional purchase.

Commander’s Garrison Orders Group Minutes 13 Nov 64
3. Organization and Equipment
c. APCs. An additional buy of 500 APCs has been made. NO delivery dates are available.

Your numbers show 482 vehicles were acquired over 1965-66. Rounded up that's 500 vehicles. With the additional purchase, now 396 instead of 292 vehicles were going to Germany. (Unfortunately, charts can't be inserted into messages here, so you have to relate the number to the heading on your own.)

4 CIBG: 6001-Carriers M113 (G) APC Distribution 3 Dec 64
1. Reference is made to Minutes of Commander’s Garrison Orders Group, 4 CIBG: S1300-151/4 (G) dated 13 Nov 64, paragraph 3c.
2. Information has been received on the proposed distribution of APCs after receipt of vehicles off the second contract. New deliveries will amount to 104 bringing the total number of APCs in 4 CIBG to 396. Delivery dates for the additional carriers have not been advised but it is expected that they will arrive during the Fall of 1965.
3. Following is the proposed allocation to units based on information available now:
Unit APC Comd Cargo Total Remarks
Bde HQ - 2 - 2
Recce Sqn 6 - - 6
Armd Regt 3 2 12 17
Fd Regt 15 6 24 45 incl 2 CM radar
Fd Sqn 13 - 5 18
Inf Bns (x3) 237 9 12 258 (86 each bn)
A Tk Coy 15 - - 15
Sub Total 289 19 53 361
Reserve 27 3 5 35
Total 316 22 58 396

I have a document from 1975 which provided the number of vehicles in Germany and the total holdings in the CF. The first number after the type is the number then in Germany. The second is the total of CF holdings.

3136-1 (DLP) Proposed New WE 4 CMBG 22 Dec 75
Annex C
11. M113 (All) 308 827
12. M548 56 81
13. M577 23 51

Finally, the numbers provided by Maloney on page 192 of his book.

The M-113 family of vehicles acquired over the 1965-1968 period included the M-577 command post and the M-548 tracked cargo carrier. Three hundred and sixteen (316) of the 961 M-113 family ordered by Canada went to 4 CIBG.

That's all I got.

Dan.