Ede, Holland 1945

[Alex van de Wetering]

After editing the photo, it produces this result. To the right of the hull is a W?

Wout, I only see the census number, a spare track link rack and a very faint star. Do you seen the "W" more towards the rear of the hull.....possibly part of the tanks nickname???

Personally, I am more interested in finding out where the Sherman Crab came from.

Hanno, I only have a copy of the 1944 War diary of the Westminster Dragoons, so I am not sure if they were in the vicinity at the time (1945)...However, I am leaning towards the Crab being 1st Lothians, as there is a series of pictures showing crabs of this unit in Velp in the local archive, and because known 1st Lothians Crabs show the same storage rack for track links on the left hand side of the hull.....a detail you don't see on Westminster Dragoons Crabs.

The Crab also has a somewhat different attachment of the left side cilinder to the tank....the rearmost stiffening rib securing the bracket and cilinder to the left side of the hull is different from others I have seen.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Attached is a picture of a 1st Lothians Crab with the same spare track link rack during a display in Amsterdam 1945.
source: https://beeldbankwo2.nl/nl/beelden/d...&rows=1&page=6

141200.jpg


Also attached are two pictures of 1st Lothians crabs in Velp 1945, april 16th, 1945. See AoS "52". (note that the Crab on left in the first picture is actually a Mk2 crab)
source: https://www.geldersarchief.nl/bronne...ding&mif2=Velp

Screenshot_2020-12-19 Beeldbank (Gelders Archief) - Gelders Archief.jpg

Screenshot_2020-12-19 Beeldbank (Gelders Archief) - Gelders Archief(1).jpg

[Alex van de Wetering]

Attached is a picture from WW2talk, courtesy of James Nightingale jnr.

"Bill Wyatts tank brewing up at Arnhem"

source: http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...y.13221/page-2

Judging from the bracket on the turret side this looks a lot like the same Crab as in Jon's picture. It's 1st Lothian and Border Yeomanry.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

I would say it’s probably the same Crab. It not only has the same type of bracket on the turret, but the chain stowage rack on the side is of similar construction (T-angle iron) and there is a long, narrow box on the rear of the engine deck of both tanks.

[Wout Jansen]

If you put my edited photo on the hard drive, and you enlarge the image on your screen, I think you can clearly see a "W" on the hull. The number is also easier to read.

[Jon McGrath]

I continue to be amazed by the detective skills of MLU members. In finding the story behind what otherwise might be simply a post-war photo of a damaged vehicle, you honour those who served. Thank you for your interest in my dad's photos. Jon

[David Dunlop]

Hi Jakko.

I think it is two different Crabs, but very likely the same Regiment.

In the first photo, side view, the photographer is standing in a roadway leading up to where the Crab is sitting. Look at the chain link fence just above the drooping gun barrel. You can see the top of the fence stop at the point where a slightly lower gate is located. This Crab was moving along a road parallel to the fence when it hit a mine. You can see daylight and ripped metal under the front portion of the hull where the first suspension assembly used to be and the top of the 2nd suspension is almost flush with the ground following the blast. The upper front slope of the hull also seems to lack the expected lines of a normal hull. The armour plate is flowing all over the place to my eyes.

In the second rear view photo, there is no trace of a chain link fence to the right of the Crab. Also, a large tree is growing just to the left of the spare chain rack. In the first photo, that portion of the tank is in full view at the intersection of the two roads.

My thoughts are the first Crab was a fatal event for the crew. The second crew were probably a lot luckier.

David

[Jon McGrath]

As requested by MicS, I have scanned at 600dpi, the highest resolution on my scanner, and applied some filtering to attempt clearer photos of the census number, turret and, possibly, the name "DERIN". I see the census number as T148167 I can't see a name nor reliably see a number or numbers on the turret. Jon

Ede Crab census number.jpg Ede Crab turret.jpg Ede Crab census number additional.jpg

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Jon McGrath

I can't see a name nor reliably see a number or numbers on the turret.

I think it says “24” on the turret:

Ede Crab turret copy.jpg

(Their poor alignment above is probably due to me missing parts of the numbers.)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Attached is a picture from WW2talk, courtesy of James Nightingale jnr.

"Bill Wyatts tank brewing up at Arnhem"

source: http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...y.13221/page-2

Judging from the bracket on the turret side this looks a lot like the same Crab as in Jon's picture. It's 1st Lothian and Border Yeomanry.

Alex, what can I say but

I only have a 1944 1LBY War Diary so will continue the search for info on operations in the Arnhem area in 1945.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Alex, what can I say but

A quick check of the 1LBY War Diary did not yield any reference to these operations in the Arnhem area - will continue the search.

There are, I think, about 5 pics of Crabs in Velp in the archive, but no idea if they were there for a flailing operation or not.

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

Canadian Army Newsreel, No. 69 (1945) Shows the RCEME in action and marking a Sherman V as a write-off.


https://youtu.be/suWnMBJBLFU?t=207

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Attached is a picture from WW2talk, courtesy of James Nightingale jnr.

"Bill Wyatts tank brewing up at Arnhem"

source: http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...y.13221/page-2

Judging from the bracket on the turret side this looks a lot like the same Crab as in Jon's picture. It's 1st Lothian and Border Yeomanry.

A cross posting to WW2Talk yielded more pictures of the Sherman Crab and the Panther tank!

It seems these were taken at a later date. The Sherman's turret seems to have been righted by then. Note the soldier sticking his head up from the RH sponson. The top plate seems to be peeled up and away by an internal explosion.

No further info on "Bill Wyatts tank brewing up at Arnhem" as of yet.

Crab M4 L1 (2).jpg Crab M4 L1 (1).jpg

Panther yu.jpg Panther yu. b.jpg

[Alex van de Wetering]

A cross posting to WW2Talk yielded more pictures of the Sherman Crab and the Panther tank!

Wow, awesome. A big thanks to James for sharing these pictures!

[MicS]

On this tank, as often on burnt out / heavily weathered tanks, paint shades seem inverted, i.e. what were white outlines (of the turret number and tank name) have become darker than the body of the outlined digit/letter.

I read the first digit of the turret number as a 9, with the characteristic shape of 1 LOTHIANS turret numbers:
No.9x.jpg

This means that the tank originally belonged to 4 Tp C Sqn, which initially comprised Crabs Nos. 90 to 94:

90? RED GAUNTLET
91? GREEN MANTIE
94 WANDERING WILLIE
92 ALAN FAIRFORD
93? COLIN CAMPBELL

The Ede Crab cannot be RED GAUNTLET, which was written off on 8 Aug 44, nor either ALAN FAIRFORD or COLIN CAMPBELL which had different stowage arrangements.

I also see a 'D' plus shades of letters compatible with No.94 WANDERING WILLIE:
Tk name.jpg

No.94 Crab 'WANDERING WILLIE' 4 Tp C Sqn 1 LOTHIANS, 7 Aug 44, Athis Farm, Op TOTALIZE - Concord.jpg

Maybe the 1945 War Diary for C Sqn could provide details on the loss of WANDERING WILLIE?

Finally, the T-number cannot be T148187 which was a Sherman V of 22 Cdn Armd Regt:
T-12727 - 0628 - '' A '' VEHICLES PREPARATORY CHART.jpg
I believe it is T148167, or possibly T148197.

Jon, could you scan this photo once more, at least the part with markings, in high resolution (600 or 1200 dpi), maybe tweaking the constrast to improve legibility of those markings?

Michel

[David Herbert]

Yes, I can easily believe T148167. However remember that all the Crabs were originally standard Sherman V gun tanks and retained the same 'T' number after conversion to Crabs so could appear in lists as either type depending on dates.

David

[Jon McGrath]

Originally Posted by MicS

Jon, could you scan this photo once more, at least the part with markings, in high resolution (600 or 1200 dpi), maybe tweaking the constrast to improve legibility of those markings?

Michel

Yes, I will do my best to get a better scan in the next 2~3 days. Jon

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Michel,

Good to get your input on this! Clearly it helps when you know what to look for to be able to ID additional clues.

Originally Posted by MicS

I read the first digit of the turret number as a 9, with the characteristic shape of 1 LOTHIANS turret numbers:

This means that the tank originally belonged to 4 Tp C Sqn, which initially comprised Crabs Nos. 90 to 94:
(...)
Finally, the T-number cannot be T148187 which was a Sherman V of 22 Cdn Armd Regt:
I believe it is T148167, or possibly T148197.