Elliott's Yard, Ontario in 1993

[david moore]

I thought you might like to see the results of my visit to the Elliott brothers' yard near Newcastle, Ontario in May of 1993 - it may have been 1994. I was looking for a jeep to restore. They were reluctant to let a youngish newbie in at all but they did relent - although they never mentioned, nor did I know of, their fabulous private collection in the barns! I never found a jeep - only a mangled frame in the long undergrowth. I knew little of CMP's then - and I knew that a carrier was beyond my skills.
The brothers wanted $1250 for any of the cab11/12's and $2500 for either of the M37's. All a bit steep for the time - but they gave the distinct impression that they didn't really want to sell anything.
Anyone know what happened to any or all of these vehicles? Is that one of yours, Alex?

[david moore]

A couple more to add

[Paul Singleton]

I also visited the yard about the same time as you. There was lots of talking but I also got the impression that they weren’t really interested in selling anything. I was looking for Ford Prefect parts at the time. Most of the CMPs were bought by Dirk Leegwater and shipped to Holland. There were multiple posts on this forum about the trucks over the years.

[Grant Bowker]

The last time I was in their yard was about 1988. At that time I knew I didn't have any spare cash for a restoration project so just asked to be allowed a "look-see" and they were accommodating. Perhaps my honesty of saying up front that I wasn't a buyer, just a looker, prompted sympathy. I don't recall whether I had a camera with me that day. If so, it would have been black and white - my budget didn't stretch to colour then. One advantage to digital photography....

[David Dunlop]

The last photo in Post 1, with the car tucked in beside the CMP, reminds me of a couple of similar sites here in Manitoba years ago. When I visited them, I was always fixated on the CMP’s and never gave the cars a second glance. I knew many of these cars were 40’s vintage. End of story. I often wonder now, how many of them might actually have been ex military.


David

[Tony Smith]

Imagine that! Having a choice between 11 or 12 Cab Fords and Chevs!

[Alex van de Wetering]

David,

Thanks for sharing these pictures. You sent me two of them a few years ago.....one of them showing my C8... it's the one with the tree growing through it and the 20inch wheel leaning on the fender.

The lettering on the door was still much clearer at that time...."Floyd Break, Pefferlaw RR2"
Even though it's not wartime history, I still enjoy to find these scraps of my truck's history.


Alex

[david moore]

Hi Alex
Would you add a photo of the C8 now? Just to encourage us all!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

1977 or 78. Even back then I was fixated on Otters and Fox.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Aerial photo of the yard in 1979. I can make out the shadows of what are Paul Visser and my Foxes. You can see the Harvard above the white roofed building. Into the tree line it was very swampy and there were cars in there dating to the very early 1900's.

[peter simundson]

.....was a Yale.

Peter Simundson

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by peter simundson

.....was a Yale.

Peter Simundson

Yes, now that I think about it it did have boots...so a Yale.

Do you know what became of it, or the carrier in front to it? Boy, those were exciting days when all this stuff was still out there to be discovered.

[David Dunlop]

Bill Gregg had a complete but unrestored Yale at one time. IIRC it was built to a French contract but diverted to Canada after France fell.

Could this be the one that ended up at Bill’s place?

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

1977 or 78. Even back then I was fixated on Otters and Fox.

The Fox is the one which was sold to Dirk Leegwater and then to Paul Visser, right?

What does "THIN ROOF HULL" and the triangle on the hull front denote? Is it a hull made from mild steel?

And where did the Otter end up?

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

The Fox is the one which was sold to Dirk Leegwater and then to Paul Visser, right?

What does "THIN ROOF HULL" and the triangle on the hull front denote? Is it a hull made from mild steel?

And where did the Otter end up?

The Fox in the photo is the one the Elliott's kept for their museum and went to the US. It has two front axles and, because they left the interior 'as-is', it was a wealth of information for my restoration. Paul's Fox was at the lower left, mine in the middle and the museum one on the right. One Otter was in the museum, the other went to a father/son team north of Montreal where it got a coat of post war gloss green paint and disappeared. I tried to look up the owners a few years ago without luck (there is an MLU post on this with pics).

The Fox in the yard were odd, and I think factory seconds. They were marked with welded on triangles and this one with THIN ROOF HULL (now ground off). All had early features (square gauges, no fire suppression, early turret crank) yet were at the end of the production run according to their manufacture dates.

Here are the locations of the Otters and Fox back then and the packing slip that came with them. My Fox is the top one, the Otter and Fox marked 'ours' went to the USA, Paul's is the third line and the other Otter is MIA.

[Les Fisher]

I bought this GMC Fox armoured car from Elliotts. Now completely resorted and owned by Bruce Parker ! Also I brokered the sale of what I believe was a Farley Mowat bring back Sd. Kfz.7 semitrack . It was sent to the Budge collection and some point part of the Littlefield Collection and now I believe it fully restored and in Massachusetts USA . Perhaps picture to follow.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Video screen shots of my Fox recovery from the Elliot's yard in 1988, courtesy of Les Fisher. First, where it sat since 1960 when it had its engine, transmission, rad, running gear, turret rings, etc. removed and sold to Levy Brothers in Toronto. The hulk was left behind, which is probably what saved it. That is one of the Elliots working the torch. Second, the turret 'over there' on the back of a 13 cab CMP. Third is the hull being moved by the same boom truck seen overtop of the Otter in my last set of pics some 10 years later. Four is loading it up on the flatbed.

Last pic is 'THIN ROOF HULL" moved from beside the Otter and ready for its move into the Elliot's museum. A life and death story on that next up.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Some 20 years after I took this photo that gap almost killed me. By then the Elliott's had gotten THIN ROOF HULL running and inside. I visited often photographing and measuring up parts. On one particular visit I needed information inside the engine compartment. I was in the museum alone and the Fox was backed up against the nose of some 1930's car with a large winged chrome hood ornament. I climbed up on the very back centre top of the Fox and lifted the engine cover. I was young and could do things like that.

But remember the gap.

As soon as I got the engine cover up I realized there were no hinges holding it in place and I was in trouble. The bottom began sliding on the thin metal rails at the top of the hull engine opening and it was going to keep sliding until it hit me in the ankles and pushed me down on that chrome hood ornament, then fall on me completely to finish the job. The more I tried to hold the top up the faster the bottom came at me, and the bottom was too far forward for me to kick and return the whole mess to horizontal. With that strength you often hear about where mothers lift cars off their pinned children I was finally able to inch the cover back and drop it in place. Denied killing me however, it wasn't finished yet. As soon as it clanked back down it started sliding backwards where of course it would drop right on that perfectly restored 1930's car crushing it. I was in no danger but the car sure was. About one third of the way on its evil trip I was able to knock it enough crooked that it wedged and stoped sliding. Carefully moving it up close to where it started I thanked the Elliotts for their hospitality and got the heck out of there.

[Brian Gough]

From post #16, Les, if it is the same vehicle, it sure went a long way from its former resting place in the Elliot Brothers yard in Newtonville.

from the R M / Sotheby website https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/lc14 about the July 2014 sale of the Jacques Littlefield Collection:

" Celebrated as one of the world's largest private collections of armored vehicles, the Littlefield Collection represented more than 30 years of careful and dedicated acquisition by the late Jacques Littlefield, founder of California's Military Vehicle Technology Foundation. Following Mr. Littlefield's passing, the collection was acquired by The Collings Foundation, who will integrate some 80 of Littlefield's prized vehicles and artifacts into its own existing collection of military vehicles and aircraft. This enlarged collection will be housed in a new 66,000-square foot facility, befitting Littlefield's vision, at the Collings Foundation headquarters in Stow, Massachusetts. The remainder of the collection – more than 200 lots of parts and accessories, and 122 military vehicles – was presented at last weekend's sale.

Highest levels of interest were received for the most recognizable and iconic vehicles of World War II. Claiming top sales honors was a German SD.KFZ.7 (KM M11) 8-Ton Half-Track Personnel Carrier which sold for $1,207,500 to applause from the audience. Used to tow medium artillery in World War II, the Half-Track included bench seating for up to 11 gun crew and special compartments in the vehicle's rear to carry ammunition. "


Brian

[peter simundson]

....... on the torch. And behind him is one of the Stuart Tank hulls that I GAVE them. I went back and got the GPMG mount from the turret. Eventually they were both sold for a great sum (for the time) of money. Don Smith had dragged three of them from the creek behind Levy's. He took them to his location at Downsview Air Base. One had all the hatches and the turret ring AND some interior parts. After a year he got heat from the base to get rid of them. So he sold one hull and turret to a scrap metal guy. When the guy picked it up he took the wrong one, Gone was the one with all the parts. Elliott's got the other two.

Peter S

[Les Fisher]

Yes Brian I believe you are correct

[Bob Phillips]

Las I remember an old German halftrack that was smashed and bashed but I did not think it was nearly as big as the chassis at Elliots, the Littlefield machine was quite large. You don't have any photos of the Elliot old chassis do you?

The Yale must have originated in Tilsonburg at the Ernie Simmons sale. I thought Bill Gregg had 2 Yale's but I could be wrong. His Yale (or yales) went to Hamilton and was restored to flying condition.will post some pics if I can find them.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Bob Phillips

Las I remember an old German halftrack that was smashed and bashed but I did not think it was nearly as big as the chassis at Elliots, the Littlefield machine was quite large. You don't have any photos of the Elliot old chassis do you?
The Yale must have originated in Tilsonburg at the Ernie Simmons sale. I thought Bill Gregg had 2 Yale's but I could be wrong. His Yale (or yales) went to Hamilton and was restored to flying condition.will post some pics if I can find them.

I recall seeing a halftrack at Elliots once. My vague recollection is that a boy scout troop or cadet corps had rolled it down a hill causing all the damage. The body was quite a mess. It was a softskin like this and not armoured.

[Brian Gough]

In Wheels & Tracks #11, p.43. there is a picture from the Elliot Brothers yard, identifying it as a Sd.Kfz. 7 8-ton semi-track tractor. Bart Vanderveen had visited there along with Bill Gregg and commented, "Now well beyond the possibility of restoration, it was reportedly used at CFB Bordon for heavy recovery practice in the post-war years, after it had been shipped from across the Atlantic 'for another look'. "

Brian

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Brian Gough

In Wheels & Tracks #11, p.43. there is a picture from the Elliot Brothers yard, identifying it as a Sd.Kfz. 7 8-ton semi-track tractor. Bart Vanderveen had visited there along with Bill Gregg and commented, "Now well beyond the possibility of restoration, it was reportedly used at CFB Bordon for heavy recovery practice in the post-war years, after it had been shipped from across the Atlantic 'for another look'. "

Brian

Here's the vehicle as sold at the Sotheby's auction. I'd love somebody to find and post a pic of what it looked like all those years ago at Elliotts. From what I recall it was nothing more than a rusting tangle of steel. If it was restored there's hope for the rest of us.

[Bob Phillips]

So here are a couple of pictures, first from W&T (thanks for the lead Brian) and it shows what I remember, a badly smashed vehicle rolled over repeatedly. I don't recall seeing any track- anybody know if there was any at the yard? I have not yet found my printed catalog from the Littlefield sale but will add any extra details (if there are any) when I do.

Second photo shows what I believe is Bill Gregg's ex Yale fully restored and flying. The restoration project was led by a fellow named Joe Gabany from Stoney Creek who was subsequently and sadly killed in a small plane crash flying home from cottage country through a bad storm.

[James P]

Originally Posted by Brian Gough

In Wheels & Tracks #11, p.43. there is a picture from the Elliot Brothers yard, identifying it as a Sd.Kfz. 7 8-ton semi-track tractor. Bart Vanderveen had visited there along with Bill Gregg and commented, "Now well beyond the possibility of restoration, it was reportedly used at CFB Bordon for heavy recovery practice in the post-war years, after it had been shipped from across the Atlantic 'for another look'. "

Brian

Bahh !! sounds like buddy is one to throw in the towel and succumb to "Never try..........never fail. I have a post war picture of that same (now restored) Sd.Kfz.8 in front of the Peace Tower on the hill.

[Ed Storey]

I think it is more a case that the metrics for what is now deemed to be restorable have changed in the past 35 years. What was once considered to be scrap in the mid-1980s is now looked at as worthy of restoration. Back in the day, Bill Gregg was a leading figure in military vehicle restoration/preservation and if he were still alive I am sure he would be impressed with how the hobby has progressed.

[James P]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I think it is more a case that the metrics for what is now deemed to be restorable have changed in the past 35 years. What was once considered to be scrap in the mid-1980s is now looked at as worthy of restoration. Back in the day, Bill Gregg was a leading figure in military vehicle restoration/preservation and if he were still alive I am sure he would be impressed with how the hobby has progressed.

..........questioned and held to account for his role in seeing the Mowat StuG depart Canada.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I think it is more a case that the metrics for what is now deemed to be restorable have changed in the past 35 years. What was once considered to be scrap in the mid-1980s is now looked at as worthy of restoration. Back in the day, Bill Gregg was a leading figure in military vehicle restoration/preservation and if he were still alive I am sure he would be impressed with how the hobby has progressed.

From this to this, nothin' to it. Just throw on a coat of paint...