#1
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Ford Truck Model letters
Difficult to find out whether this has been discovered in this forum discussion as yet but I think that the letter suffixes! are likely to be:
"D" as in 11D is the body type ie 3/4 ton "Y" as in 11Y is the body type 1 ton "T" as in 11T is the body type Regular Truck "W" as in 11W is the body type Cab over engine so C191W is (C) Canadian built, (1) 1941, (9) 95bhp engine, (1) 101" wheelbase and (W) Cab over engine body. and....wait for it!!! C11AD is (C) Canadian built, (1) 1941, (1) 85bhp engine, (A) ?, (D) 3/4 ton station wagon body. So David what's the "A" stand for? Its in the place where it should refer to the chassis size. The C11AD had a chassis size of 114". I also believe that the shorter chassis models didn't have the chassis no. in the prefix and it was only the 101", 158", 176" which did. Sorry if this is going over old ground everyone but I couldn't find out if this had been finalised!! Now I will find out!! Nigel |
#2
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Hmmmm!
My Canadian data book says that the 'A' suffix dates back to the 1938 Models at least, possibly the 1937, and continued to 1941 at least. I wonder if it signified passenger or light commercial chassis?
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#3
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Re: Hmmmm!
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Nigel |
#4
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Ford suffixes
The suffix relates to the Chassis model, not the Body style. "A" is the standard Ford Passenger car chassis and has been used for cars from 1938 (81A or C81A) to well into the '50s (1951 C1BA). It applies wether the car is a four door, two door, station wagon, etc. We have looked at these suffixes before, but you're right, it was never really finalised. Let's try:
"A" Passenger Car "C" Commercial Vehicle, 3/4 ton "Y" Medium Truck, 1 ton "T" Full Truck, 1 1/2, 2 or 3 ton "W" Cab over Engine (Civvy) "S" Special Chassis variant, Civvy (mostly 4x4 and/or winch) "Q" Special Chassis variant, Military (mostly 4x4 and/or winch) "R" Rear Engine "F" RHD "D" 9.00-13 tyres (David's suggestion as this only appears on a few vehicles, all seemingly with 9.00-13 tyres!) These seem to be the rule, and there are plenty of exceptions (eg a F15A is not a passenger car version of an F15!). If a suffix does not appear in a model designation when it should, then it is because there were no other options available. For example, an early FGT is C291QF, and later versions were changed to C291Q. The later versions do not have an F because there were no intentions to build LHD gun tractors. That said, why does it have a Q when there were no 4x2 gun tractors? Ask Henry! (In this case it stands for winch). Therefore a C11A could be a standard Light Car or Station Wagon, and a C11AD would be the same with 9.00-13 tyres (No car versions were produced, only wagons), and a C11ADF is a wagon (Could also be a car, but none were made) with 9.00-13 tyres and RHD. |
#5
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U-hoo!
Also:
"U" Dump "B" Bofors? "H" Winch or lack of winch when one normally fitted? "R(F)" Central drive [Rear-engined] "(Special)" Special adaptation/order? By the way, I would not have asked Henry...he was head of the Ford Motor Company. Instead I would have asked Monsieur L. Giroux, Auto Engineering, Windsor as it was Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited that applied these designations and Giroux applied his name to spec sheets detailing model numbers and production data from 1939-42. Ford of Canada was only a partial subsidary of Ford of Dearborn, and owned all overseas subsidaries excluding Ford Motor Company Limited, London & Dagenham, England; Ford-Werke AG, Koln, etc. and possibly the Ford Hungary and Ford Egypt, Alexandria operations. There must be a list somewhere in Ford of Canada's archives, now possibly in Dearborn post-slave labour claims, that explains the designation system for Model Numbers? Of course the DND used 'A' for 4 x 4 drive; 'H' for '6 x 4'; 'X' for 6 x 6 drive, so where does the C8AX come in, as it is a 15-cwt. chassis not 8-cwt. and arguably a completely different animal from the C8A HUP? Also we have 'T' for tractor, as in the F60T, 'B' for Bofors, and 'C' as a prefix to signify Modified Conventional Pattern, e.g. CC60/FC60S and L, and the FC602S/L |
#6
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Carrier model numbers?
I forgot that Windsor also used interesting Model Numbers on the Carriers, e.g.:
Ford Model: C01UC C21UCM C21UCG C31UCW Did 'UC' stand for 'Universal Carrier'? Dagenham I think used 'AOP' for Armoured Observation Post initially. However, I have yet to find out what the FOX Model Number was! |
#7
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Re: U-hoo!
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The DND codes are a different system again. This was to overcome the different (confusing) practices of each manufacturer. The Ford F60L has a Ford engineering code of C298QF, the Chev C60L has it's own GM code of 8443. The DND system recognises that these two numbers don't bear any similarity to each other for what are essentially similar vehicles, so the DND code gives them F-60448-M and C-60448-M. This tells us they are either Ford or Chev, 60cwt, 4 wheels, 4 driven wheels, 158"wb and Military cab. : |
#8
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Brilliant
Brilliant everyone. Thats what I like, all the loose ends being tied up. Thanks. I shall now print it out and file it with my U016TQFH(Special) ! A beer for anyone to work that one out exactly please!
Tony? David? Nigel |
#9
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Thoughts
Tony, I owe an apology as I took up your point about the DND designation of the F15/F15A etc. and expanded it and allowed there to show how Model Numbers and DND designations owed nothing to each other. I confused readers.
I am not sure I agree about the independence of the Ford Model series. Whilst basic chassis type model numbers were shared between the USA, Canada, Germany, England, Romania, South Afica, and Australia, the Windsor Plant under Stan Ellis created unique designs that owed little to the Dearborn versions excepting in a major way the Forward Control/COE designs that Windsor did not have pre-1940. The Canadian model numbers were unique because they used the standard Ford system and were adapted for each Windsor design or adaptation in the case of the MCPs. I have studied the DND papers on the development of the CMPs and it is abundently clear that Windsor were on their own and acted independently of Dearborn and in concert with GM of Canada [which was largely GM Corporation-owned] save that they relied on the US company for the provision of components and expertise when Windsor were not able to source themselves. Whilst many Canadian Fords used identical model numbers to the US versions, with 'C' prefix to confirm Windsor assembly, plus as has been said US-style suffixes, the Canadians were also acting independently. Even Dagenham used the US-style model numbers and suffixes and only went totally independent in 1951 [with the Consul and Zephyr cars: EOTA etc.] . Then again we have to add the 'E' prefix for Dagenham-assembled Canadian chassis from 1940-2, i.e. 'EC' prefixes in front of the Canadian model number. Dagenham also used 'W' prefixes in front of the imported US chassis and used their 'WOT' series designations for War Office /Ministry of Supply contracts with a sequential suffix that did not pander to the worldwide Ford model numbering system and yet the chassis themselves were either adapated standard chassis or purpose-designed. From my notes: W0A1 Ford V-8 3.6 3-spd 9 0 saloon staff car W0C1 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 9 4 8-cwt. W0A2 Ford V-8 3.6 3-spd 9 0 4 door estate car W0T2: see below W0T3 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11 11 30-cwt. W0T6 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11 11 3-ton 4 x 4; Forward-Control W0T8 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11 11 30-cwt. 4 x 4; Forward-Control W0T9 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd CAPLAD prototype rear-engined based on W0T6 chassis 'WOC1 was a Ministry of Supply order Model 01C, which were in fact supplied by Ford, USA, as a 1940 Model with 30 h.p. V-8. ' WOT1 was a 6-wheeled 143½-inch truck chassis with 42 7/16-inch Sussex bogie conversion for the Ministry of Supply and Air Ministry for the RAF, with 30 h.p. V-8 engine [WOT1 was s.w.b., WOT1A l.w.b., the R.A.F. using them for barrage balloon winches etc. WOT3 and WOT4 were replaced by WOT5, which was a six-wheeled Fordson Sussex load carrier'. 'WOT2 A GS infantry truck aeroscreens and a sheeted rear body (no tilt frame) WOT2 B As the A model but with a tilt frame covered rear body referred to as a van body WOT2 C evolution of the A model, but still with aeroscreens and other small changes. WOT2 D as the B model, but with windscreen changes again. Still tilt frame and cover... WOT2 E Infantry truck, fully enclosed cab and full windscreen, wooden body, tilt frame and cover. WOT2 F As E but without the tilt frame and cover and with a steel body. Still titled infantry truck WOT2 H Appears similar to the to the E model but possibly with out the tilt frame and cover'. ************************************************** I thought it might be helpful to confirm the GM of Canada model numbers for CMPs and MCPs. CMPs: 8420 C8 8421 C15 8440 CGT 8441 C30S/C30 8442 C60S 8443 C60L 8444 C15A 8445 C8A 8446 Fox and Rhino 8447 Otter and CAPLAD 8448 C8AX 8449 C15TA 8660 C60X To this must be added all the theoretically available MCP Chevrolet, Maple Leaf and GMC trucks. This is a link to my list of 1940 and 1941-45 trucks by Model Number, etc. BUT not all were actually produced in the war despite them all being listed by GM of Canada. http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/.../YEAR CODE.htm Note that '8' was the CMP series, whereas Chevrolet & ML was '1' and GMC '9' as a prefix to the Model number, then '4' and '6' was the series, and '2' was 4 x 2, '4' 4 x 4 and '6' '6 x 6' drive, with the last digit applied sequentially and arguably chronologically as each chassis type was signed-off, ranging from '0' to '9' with the C8/C15 and C60X in seperate series from the 4 x 4 series. Tony reminds us of the DND series F-60448-M etc., which relates to capacity, wheels, drive and a sequential number. I have I think all these codes for Ford and GM if anyone needs them. Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 12-03-05 at 01:29. |
#10
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Re: Ford suffixes
Looking at the Ford Model ID Chart, the list is as follows:
"A" Passenger "B" Bus (rear engine) "C" Commercial "D" Ύ Ton Truck "T" 1½ Ton Truck "Y" 1 Ton Truck "W" 1½ Ton C.O.E. "U" 1½ Ton Dump Truck Getting closer and closer to The Definitive Ford Model Designation List! H. |
#11
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Re: Thoughts
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To keep your records straight, the WOT3 wheelbase is 11' 11 1/2", as is the WOT6, but the WOT8 is 9' 10" Richard |
#12
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8440
Here's a shot of the underside of the bonnet of a CGT in Australia where we had the practice of painting the nomenclature including year of manufacture, although there are many different variations. Some gun tractors for instance have simply "GT 1943"
http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/CGT/wodonga_cgt/8440.jpg Source This is the underside of the bonnet of my FGT, again with non standard nomenclature: http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/fgt_recov/bonnet_1.jpg "C291 F.A.T. 4X4" According to Mike Cecil this is typical of the sort of hand painted nomenclature applied at the Ford factory in Geelong. Source
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
#13
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Thanks!
Richard, I am obliged.
I have jyst checked and the w.b. list is: WOT1 143 1/2 + 42 7/16 inches with 6 wheeled Sussex conversion E917T 157" + 42 7/6" with Sussex conversion WOT2 105" based on the Model 61 chassis modified WOT3A/B/C/D 143 1/2" WOT6 143 1/2" WOT8 118" I suspect that the WOT5 was in fact the above E917T as against the E987T/E917T with either Surrey or Sussex conversions. The above were for the SA Defence Ford and RAF. |
#14
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Re: C11ADF
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Known Ford Station Wagon models: - C11AD - C11ADF (1941 model, 9.00-13 tyres) - C11AS (6.00-16 tyres) - C21AS (basically 1942 station wagon) - C29ADF in which: C = Canadian design 1st digit = model year; 1 = 1941 model, 2 = 1942 model 2nd digit = engine type; '1' indicates the 85-hp engine, '9' the 95-hp engine A = 4x2 car chassis with 114" (1941) or 118" wheelbase (1942) D = unknown F = right-hand drive S = unknown Pictures of the C11ADF show it with 9.00-13" tyres. Vanderveen notes the C11ADF has a "full-floating truck-type rear axle with open propeller shaft and semi-epileptic springs (as Ford C011DF - F8)". My guess is the "D" denotes the 13" tyres, F8 rear axle and I beam 8-cwt truck type front axle combination. The "S" probably denotes Standard, as in fitted with 6.00-16" tyres. What did the standard 1941-42 car axle setup look like? Transverse leaf spring with propeller shaft running down a torque tube? Both types had a front axle with transverse leaf spring, common on Fords of that era. Re. the F stands for right-hand drive: this means the C11AD and C11AS were left-hand drive Wagons supplied to the Canadian Army for domestic use (similar to their US counterparts, if they had them?) For scans of the relevant pages from Gregg and Vanderveen see http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/station_wagons.htm Hope this helps, Hanno |
#15
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Dagenham listing
Ford Dagenham model listing
I added in the DND official references and also the reference to assembly at Slough but otherwise the info was taken from the 1942 Dagenham model listing. |
#16
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ID No. help please
The 1940 6x4 Trucks which went to the SDF during the war with searchlight bodies on, what would have been their designation?
They presumably were converted to RHD by Dagenham and even had the searchlight body put on/shipped out by Dagenham. Thanks Nigel |
#17
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SADF 6 x 4
They were Fordson E917T with the Sussex conversion from County Commercial Cars Limited. As such they were factory rhd from Dagenham.
The SA trucks were purchased by the Ministry of Supply, whereas the RAF barrage balloon trucks with winch were supplied to the Air Ministry. They both had long bogies with 7 3/4 articulation, with auxiliary gearbox and 9 x 20 tyres on the former and 9.00 x 16 tyres on the latter. |
#18
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Other 6x4s
David thanks. Were there other 6x4 Fords which may have gone to SA during the war? Especially with the 1940/41 Cab and bonnet configuration. I have a picture of one crossing a pontoon carrying bridge sections. It's in the Springbok War Record book and if I could work out how this photo attach thing on this forum works I would post a pic.
I've tried Geoff, Hanno, I've tried. Read all the instructions and attached file but to no avail. Doesn't seem to want us Scots posting pics!! As The Bruce said "Try, Try, try again...." etc. |
#19
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Wot?
Nigel, you could always send me the pix to post for you. I would have thought that the WOT1 might have been supplied but I have a photo [Xerox] from the IWM showing one of these E917T searchlight trucks and it appears that they had the '40 Ford front end although in theory they were '39 Models.
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#20
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A very small question amongst the questions.
I have seen photos of 38-39-40 Ford four door sedans with the 9:00X13 wheel and tyre equipment and of course the fairly numerous 41 Ford Wagon but never a 41 Ford four door with that wheel/tyre combo. I seem to think I have also seen at least a 40 Ford wagon with 9:00X13 equipment but not a 42. On the other hand, I have numerous photos of the 41 Ford four door as a US staff car, also the 1942 models both sedan and wagon in US service. Sorry to go on so long, but does anyone have photos or links to any of the above I mentioned that I have not seen with the 9:00X13 setup??? Bill
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Dog Robber Sends |
#21
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'S' suffix
I wonder whether 'S' also stood for 'Scout Car' in the case of the Lynx 1 and Lynx 11..C19SR and C29SR, where 'R' stood for rear-engined?
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#22
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David:
You must be terribly bored. Last post on this thread was almost 3 1/2 months ago Cheers Bill
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Dog Robber Sends |
#23
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!
No, just as with the answer requested from Deep Thought about the answer to everything, I need to now the answer to the Ford model designations!
Seriously, I am editing and writing books and there are so many holes in my database about Ford trucks and CMP-based vehicles. The recent Lynx thread confirrmed the Lynx 1 and 11 Model Numbers, so that was possibly the last ones to add to the list unless anyone knows any more Fords not covered? |
#24
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Although this thread is ancient, I thought these documents might be of interest to everyone. I'm sure I had already sent them to the late, great David Hayward years ago.
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#25
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Ford USA
Quote:
Here's a picture showcasing much of the American Ford-built equipment in your lists.
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#26
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Seems to be just Ford USA figures, not the whole WW2 production figures.
Just adding CMPs, MCPs, Carriers, commercial trucks and cars alone built by Ford Canada would add 600,000 vehicles (almost every one with a Ford V8 engine), not including the various other contributions to the war effort.
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You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should! |
#27
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Quote:
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#28
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#29
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Canadian production figures
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#30
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Some more model codes from an earlier thread:
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
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