.50 cal armed Universal Carriers

[Waycool]

Hi All

Would anyone have information relating to the arming and mounting of .50cals on Universal Carriers MkII's. Recently I completed reading Roy Whitsead's Canadians: A Battalion At Wara about the Queens Own Rifles and it described if I recall correctly .50cal armed carriers. Having purused the forum I saw a couple photos of 50 cal armed units but would like more detail photos or mount information if possible.

Generally speaking were carriers crewed by 3 or 4 members? what was standard armament load out? Were 2 " mortars standard on them and if so what mount I have seen one mounted on a photo in the forum identified as a lake Superior Regt carrier with 50cal but this looks to be a June 45 photo and not a combat one. I have seen the older style smoke discargers (dual or single) were these common on NWE carriers?

What I am after is making a realistic carrier miniature of a Canadian Infantry Battalions carrier.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

See http://www.mapleleafup.nl/t16carrier/t16pic06.html for a picture of a T16 Universal Carrier armed with a .50 cal Browning.

A T-16 of the Canadian Lake Superior Regiment (4th Armoured Brigade, 4th Canadian Armoured Division) at a vehicle park in Holland just after the war. Note the improvised armaments, including the M2HB ground-mount .50 calibre machine gun complete with M3 aircraft barrel, 2" mortar on the smoke discharger mount, Bren mounting, and whatever it is the man in the back is posing behind. One can only assume that this carrier was used for more than just hauling supplies from one place to another, a testament perhaps to its durability.

[Waycool]

Thanks Hanno yeah thats the pic that I think has been identified as Lake Superior Regt>?


I was mistaken on the book I read about the 50cal armed Universal Carriers it was; Valour in the Victory Campaign:
The 3rd Canadian Infantry Division Gallantry Decorations, 1945 by T. Robert Fowler. So these were 3rd Infantry Divisions carriers but not necessarily QOR.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

All such mounts you speak of were usually jury-rigged at the unit level, in the field. The crew/section/platoon would scrounge the weapons (.50s or .30s) and their mounts (both the guns and cradles off tanks were popular targets) and have their LAD weld up a mounting strong enough to withstand recoil and general abuse.

Incidently, this went for all sorts of armoured vehicles, not just carriers; I have photos of an incredibly complex .30 Browning mount welded onto the front of a 12th Manitobas Lynx scout car, and most Canadian Ram Kangaroos had at least one if not two such jury-rigged mounts on their turret rings.

It's interesting to note that the .50 Brownings supplied for AA use on the turrets of all Shermans were usually discarded by Canadian tankers; no doubt many of these ended up in such service as we're discussing. I've also been told, though, that in some circles the .50s weren't all that popular because of their size, recoil and the vast amount of space needed for ammunition storage; in many cases, the .30s were far more versatile in all respects.

I can only think that a .50 on sustained fire from a carrier would shake the poor thing to bits... but nonetheless, we've seen the pics! This is one of the pics to which you are no doubt referring:



These are unidentified members of the Lake Superiors clowning about in the vehicle park after they were stood down in Holland. There's no reason to suspect that this T-16 carrier might not have carried this armament for many months.

If you watch the Norman Summer episode of the CANADA AT WAR series (available through the NFB), you will also see glimpses of standard Universals so armed, and I've seen one more pic with the cradle mount for one welded onto the bulkhead behind the front compartment.

Be advised, though, that in standard infantry formations, MOST carriers went unarmed other than the crews' rifles, Brens and Stens (and perhaps a PIAT). With notable exceptions (Wasps, mortar and Vickers MG carriers), they were used as utility vehicles, not fighting vehicles. Crew strength varied depending on mission (three or four is a good number to go with), and if you insist on building an armed carrier, stow all personal gear OUTSIDE the carrier and fill the inside with ammunition boxes!

If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Geoff

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

You beat me to it, Hanno!

[Waycool]

Thanks Geoff that is indeed one of the pics. I also saw a pic of aline of 7 carriers and one Jeep in Italy (maybe a SA unit) that had one of the group of carriers armed with a .50 cal as well.

The other photo I have is this one which is from the site as well.

Was the 2" mortar standard in lieu of the side mounted dual smoke discargers (with rifle firing mechanism)?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Mike,

The 2" mortar was a far more useful appliance in that it could pump out HE as well as smoke, and one could carry more ammunition for any given space. I honestly don't know how long the standard 4" cup dischargers might have been retained... perhaps someone else can answer this. I'd go with the 2" mortar, but that's your prerogative.

The thing to remember when dealing with the Carrier At War as a topic is that stowage space for anything, including personal kit, was at a premium. Hence, stowage boxes moved to the front hull, jerry cans roped onto the back deck, ration boxes, large packs, tarps and camouflage nets piled and tied-down anywhere, etc. Ammunition for anything carried was always stowed inside the armour plate. Don't forget the guys had to LIVE in these vehicles... when building a model, you can invoke a great deal of interpretation. But don't forget the sandbags on the floor! They at least gave the illusion of protection against mine blasts...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

BTW, the carriers you picture above are Regina Rifles... ironic given our other ongoing conversation in the Historical Forum!

[Waycool]

Thanks Geoff

Excellent info on the sand bags for crew compartments I was not aware of that. 2" mortar sounds super as well I have seen a pic online at dana neil's site on the vimy collection that shaows a heap of carriers including what looks to be stowed 2" mortar.

[Snowtractor]

Met and old chap in a coffee shop years ago that used to drive carriers and when he found out I had one, well.. It was great listening to him and he said that on recce they didn't like to fire forward firing weapons because it slowed the carrier down too much. They would place the 2" mortar facing back and as they were beating the hell out of some hot area they would fire it and the machine gun backwards and gain a couple of mph from the recoil. He also talk me how to break the track :-)
Sean

[Tony Smith]

This pic is from Jeff Plowman's book "2nd NZ Divisional Cavalry Regiment in the Mediterranean"

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
the .30s were far more versatile in all respects.

Here´s a picture of one, recently auctioned on eBay (Item number: 6512717056, fetched US $18.49):

A March, 1942 press photo of a Polish Soldier fighting with the Polish Brigade as part of the British Army in North Africa against the German Africa Corp. These Polish soldiers were fighting alongside the British after Poland was invaded and overrun by the German Army in 1939. The soldier in the press photo looks like a very seasoned soldier as he stands in his British Bren armored vehicle holding a large Browning Machine Gun with a long clip of bullets stretching to the machine gun. The front of his helmet has the Polish Eagle. The back of the photo states in part “BRITISH OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPH, WAR OFFICE, PICTURE ISSUED MARCH1942, WITH THE POLISH BRIGADE IN THE WESTERN DESERT. PHOTO SHOWS A POLISH SOLDIER MANNING A BROWNING MACHINE-GUN WHICH IS MOUNTED ON A BREN CARRIER. THESE PICTURES TAKEN AT THE EXTREME FORWARD POSITIONS, SHOW INFANTRY AND ARTILLARY UNITS OF THE POLISH BRIGADE WHO WAS FACING THE GERMANS AND ITALIANS INTERNATIONAL NEWS PHOTO, PINTED IN ENGLAND”.



The back of the photo states:

[Nigel Watson]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Here´s a picture of one, recently auctioned on eBay (Item number: 6512717056. The back of the photo states in part “BRITISH OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPH, WAR OFFICE, PICTURE ISSUED MARCH1942, WITH THE POLISH BRIGADE IN THE WESTERN DESERT. PHOTO SHOWS A POLISH SOLDIER MANNING A BROWNING MACHINE-GUN WHICH IS MOUNTED ON A BREN CARRIER. THESE PICTURES TAKEN AT THE EXTREME FORWARD POSITIONS, SHOW INFANTRY AND ARTILLARY UNITS OF THE POLISH BRIGADE WHO WAS FACING THE GERMANS AND ITALIANS INTERNATIONAL NEWS PHOTO, PINTED IN ENGLAND”.

Caption is definitely wrong!! This was the armoured unit of the Short Range Sand Group!!

Nigel

Have you noticed the way they are using the AA pod mount on the side of the carrier to mount the Browning.

[G166UC]

Although not installed at the factory, most of the T-16s used by the Canadian and British Armys had a 2 inch mortar mount installed. This is the first photo I have seen with the mortar mounted in the bracket. I have the mount in my T-16 and I have a 2 inch mortar, but I need the special base on the mortar in order to mount it to the base mount. Anyone have such an item?
Thanks Rod Shaver

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Polish Utility Carrier.

[jeff davis]

I talked to a Veteran from the Westminster Regiment (Italy)
He related how they aquired their 50s on the Carriers, The strathconas were ditching their 50s in favour of the 30s so they could depress far enough to shoot infantry of the tanks.
My Veteran friend (cant seem to remember his name but will look it up) asked if he could have the guns for his Carrier troops and was given all of them ,they promply mounted them to the right side of the gunners port and the ammo lasted the rest of his tour of Italy.
He said the 50s were great for suppressive fire but they did not use them that much
regards Jeff

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by jeff davis
I talked to a Veteran from the Westminster Regiment (Italy)
He related how they aquired their 50s on the Carriers, The strathconas were ditching their 50s in favour of the 30s so they could depress far enough to shoot infantry of the tanks.
My Veteran friend (cant seem to remember his name but will look it up) asked if he could have the guns for his Carrier troops and was given all of them ,they promply mounted them to the right side of the gunners port and the ammo lasted the rest of his tour of Italy.
He said the 50s were great for suppressive fire but they did not use them that much
regards Jeff

Hi Jeff;

I've read that same story, or along the same lines somewhere before, but off hand, I can't remember where I read it.

Cheers

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Stellan
Great picture. What I really like is that your picture further supports my hypothesis that Carrier track should be oriented with "tails to the rear". See my thread on Carrier Track Orientation.
Bob

[Crewman]

Answering all Polish-related posts I may tell that when it comes to machine gun-equipped Universal Carriers the US .50 M2HB-armed Carriers in Polish Army are not known. Polish troops used Vickers-armed MMG Carriers as well as various models of the Bren-armed Universal Carriers and at the end of war also Bren-armed Wasp IICs.


Regards

C.

[Gunner]

The Canadians earned a reputation for expert scrounging and the evidence is in the photos on this string.

The LSSR Carrier (all dickied up for the Victory parades is my guess) sports an aircraft version of the .50 with the shorter aircool shrouded barrel. Compare the barrel lengths with the Regina's carriers. The ballistics were different from the HB (heavy barrel) version seen on the Regina's carriers in Italy and the range was significantly shorter. This means the airforce .50s would not likely have firing tables for indirect suppressive fire, one of the primary roles of the support platoons equipped with the .50 HB. Nor could the lighter barrels tolerate sustained firing... they would simply melt if subjected to the abuse of a 1/2 hour fire support plan during an assault. They would be useful for defensive fire and quick suppressive fire for a recce element tho'... too bad we can't get more detail on the role of the LSSR carrier.

I wonder what airforce wreck, depot, plane the LSSR .50 was stolen ... I mean acquired from? The army would not normally have them in inventory.

Must have been a nightmare for the troops to acquire the ammo as well as they weren't scaled for it so a fair bit of horse trading must have gone on.

Cheers! Mike

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

If you look closer, you'll note that although it's an air-cooled barrel, the gun still retains the standard M2HB barrel jacket. I suggest that this gun has indeed been scrounged, although it started out as the slower-firing M2HB... spare barrels were likely scrounged out of a crash-landed fighter! Easier to carry and lighter to handle... all the same, the vibration from that thing must have shaken the piss out of everyone onboard, never mind the noise!

[Nigel Watson]

I also reckon they feared an attack by tanks from the rear! Must have run out of fuel because these wee trackies can turn at a fair lick and outrun anything!!

Nigel

[Gunner]

Hi Geoff:

This has gotten me very curious so I've sent a PM on the DND net to a chum of mine asking for more detail on the differences between the M2HB and the aircraft version... he is the CF's senior armourer and an acknowledged expert on antique machine guns (he owns a huge collection of his own). I'm especially interested to learn about the ballistic differences between the two MGs.

The Polish gent's Browning is also interesting... on close look you can see that the belt is cloth and the rounds are rimmed... I suspect it is a .303 version.

Currently negotiating the acquisition of a couple of .50's for the halftrack and M113.5 Lynx. Sorry guys, please don't ask... you have to be a registered museum with a business licence to get these ones.

Cheers! Mike

[John McGillivray]

The photo below shows how the Canadians in NWE mounted their .50 cals on their carriers. (7th recce Regt.)

[Tim Bell]

From an online source... don't recall where...



Tim

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Have merged pics of .30 or .50 cal armed carriers I found on this forum to this thread.

Here's one more, don't know when this was taken or which unit is depicted. One can imagine an MG had to be moved to the top of the armour with all that stowage on the front of the carrier...

Originally Posted by lssah2025

I am looking for some bits and bobs..
2. Mount that was used/modified (to use) the M2HMG or 1919 up front. (see pics)

Some more pics here: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=12170

Originally Posted by Stewart Loy

I have attached a picture of the box bracket in use on a M2 by ANZAC troops in a desert far away, long ago.

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

Source: Imperial War Museum
Reference Number: B 5185
Photographer: Mapham J (Sgt)
No 5 Army Film & Photographic Unit
Title: THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944
Collection No.: 4700-29
Description: Men of the Staffordshire Yeomanry crowd in and around a universal carrier for a portrait, 7 June 1944. The vehicle is equipped with a .50-inch Browning machine gun, 7 June 1944.
Period:Second World War

Link to the source of that IWM picture, check and zoom in for details: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205201960

[Hanno Spoelstra]

From a series of pictures of Private Max Doughty, while serving with The SD&G Highlanders.


Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1117...0092629163631/

[Andrew Morrison]

Have a picture of a Canadian carrier of the 1st Battalion Queens Own Rifles at Camp Wainwright preparing to deploy for UN service in Egypt dated 1956. Will put up the picture when near a scanner

The crew of 4 are all looking very serious in a Ford Canada carrier with what looks to me (who is no expert) to be a 30 cal - belt fed air cooled machine gun with a pistol grip - mounted on the air scoop

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by Andrew Morrison

Have a picture. . .
The crew of 4 are all looking very serious in a Ford Canada carrier with what looks to me (who is no expert) to be a 30 cal - belt fed air cooled machine gun with a pistol grip - mounted on the air scoop

Browning 1919A4 .30 cal.

[stephen crowhurst]

I notice that they are using the Vickers Pedestal to mount the Browning. Were the tapers the same on the two cradles or did they make a different cradle to mount the Browning?