M38Cdn Refurbishment

[Peter Phillips]

Rob, correct, I'm talking out of turn mentioning the wheel cylinders, my bad.

Wayne, unfortunately the "supervisor" usually shows up with a few cold ones causing the tools to lose their momentum, lol. She's actually refinishing a 100 year old rocking chair alongside my project. I'll put up with the dust to spend quality shop time with the boss.

Tony, I don't usually attend too many swap meets or even garage sales which is bad in one way not finding cool/useful stuff and good with not dragging home more projects, lol.

Phil, thanks for the compliment! Funny you mentioned solder as I casually thought of soldering the whole thing together or heating the heck out the washer then installing it. I like the solder idea coating the washer and will try that trick.

[Peter Phillips]

Has anyone else ran into two - single lip seals installed in their t-case output shaft? I read in some of the off road forums that this was quite common in lieu of the felt piece. It didn't affect the surface of the yoke so I'll be going back to OEM unless that's a bad idea?

[SteveJ]

Great job Pete.
With regard to solid copper washers. They do harden but you can anneal them by heating them cherry red then quenching in water. This softens the copper again and they will not leak.

[rob love]

Are you saying that someone stacked two single lip seals in place of the double lip seal normally in that location? Sounds like someone's attempt to cure a problem leak.

Sometimes the problem isn't the seal at all, but rather the oil sneaking through between the shaft and the yoke. There was a rubber washer you could locate underneath the washer and nut retaining the yoke. You can put RTV onto the washer, shaft face, and the face of the yoke to prevent that. And, of course, make sure your breather valve or fording vent lines are clear.

Another thing that can be done to prevent the transfer case from getting overfilled whilst climbing hills, is to replace the transfer case to transmission bearing with a sealed bearing.

[Peter Phillips]

Steve, thanks for the tip for annealing, I'm pulling out all stops to seal this thing up once and for all!

Rob, yes there was a thick single seal and a thinner one in there. It seemed to work ok too. I've been doing a ton of research on sealing up the t-case and one of the tricks as you mentioned, is oil migration between the shaft and yoke; same thing I dealt with on the differentials.

[Peter Phillips]

And the saga continues......tons of work accomplished! I picked up the motor from Edmonton and mated it to the drivetrain.
The rundown on progress:
-checked over the transmission, t-case and pto and installed new seals and gaskets. Oil is in and no leaks so far!
-removed the dual seals on the t-case output shaft, re-mounted a metal dust cap and re-installed the proper seal and felt washer.
-installed all required components inside the z-shaft for the clutch linkage as they were non-existent
-the anti-rattle clips were also missing on the shift levers so they're in place now
-dealt with the bent skid plate was that someone pointed out to me (I honestly thought it was supposed to look like that), so I removed it, re-blasted and it had a date with a 50 ton press. It's nice and straight now and re-painted.
-managed to get the brake lines to stop leaking after annealing the washers, replacing the tee fitting and master cylinder banjo bolt.
-replaced one bad u-joint and put a new (homemade) slip yoke seal and split washer on the rear driveshaft.

The winch is in progress now and once painted and mounted, I can finally say mechanical is done.

Of course I got a run in the front bumper after painting so it's up for a sand and re-paint.

And the good news, the front springs have relaxed enough now that I was able to remove my pre-load tensioners.

Check out the cool knurled piston that came out of the motor! It's going to become a polished up, pen holder.

I'll add another post for more pictures.

Next step is the body...argh!

[Peter Phillips]

More pictures.....

[super dave]

Originally Posted by Peter Phillips

And the saga continues......tons of work accomplished! I picked up the motor from Edmonton and mated it to the drivetrain.
The rundown on progress:
-checked over the transmission, t-case and pto and installed new seals and gaskets. Oil is in and no leaks so far!
-removed the dual seals on the t-case output shaft, re-mounted a metal dust cap and re-installed the proper seal and felt washer.
-installed all required components inside the z-shaft for the clutch linkage as they were non-existent
-the anti-rattle clips were also missing on the shift levers so they're in place now
-dealt with the bent skid plate was that someone pointed out to me (I honestly thought it was supposed to look like that), so I removed it, re-blasted and it had a date with a 50 ton press. It's nice and straight now and re-painted.
-managed to get the brake lines to stop leaking after annealing the washers, replacing the tee fitting and master cylinder banjo bolt.
-replaced one bad u-joint and put a new (homemade) slip yoke seal and split washer on the rear driveshaft.

The winch is in progress now and once painted and mounted, I can finally say mechanical is done.

Of course I got a run in the front bumper after painting so it's up for a sand and re-paint.

And the good news, the front springs have relaxed enough now that I was able to remove my pre-load tensioners.

Check out the cool knurled piston that came out of the motor! It's going to become a polished up, pen holder.

I'll add another post for more pictures.

Next step is the body...argh!

Do I see cap bolts holding the PTO on ?

[Peter Phillips]

You sure do, Dave. They're quite functional and aren't going to prevent a win at any show I'll attend. Remember, I've title this "refurbishment".......... not restoration. My original intent was to make this jeep safe to drive, dependable and leak free; and maybe learn a lot along the way while having fun. I'm getting there, lol

[SteveJ]

Hey Pete
did you stick with the rear driveshaft that was installed or did you tidy up the spare one and use it?

[Peter Phillips]

Originally Posted by SteveJ

Hey Pete
did you stick with the rear driveshaft that was installed or did you tidy up the spare one and use it?

I stuck with what was there after installing a new cork seal w/split washer in the yoke and replaced one u-joint.

One day I may bring in the extra one to a driveline shop in Edmonton and get a new stub put on, balanced and install new U-joints.

[Peter Phillips]

Got the winch installed now. Found a good facsimile of the original cable clamp to attach the chain to the cable. I had to manufacture my own elongated links on each end of the 5/16" chain links too which was a challenge but turned out OK.

[Peter Phillips]

Next step is the inspection and re-sealing of the steering gear box. Luckily it looks great with no corrosion or free play anywhere. I've also decided to put the body on hold until I get the steering box and electrical installed and test run this unit. I will even attempt to install a seat and faux firewall for the clutch and brake pedal to rest against and attempt to move it through all it's gears to make sure I didn't mess anything up....although everything bench tested fine The body is in really decent shape corrosion wise with only one broken bolt in the hat channel under the drivers floor. There's more stripping required and a few holes to weld up and I'll work away at the floor dents then off to sand blasting. The blaster is well versed in automotive blasting and will keep the heat off the components to avoid warpage.

[Peter Phillips]

Update: Got the electrical in place, she rolls over and has spark. The faux firewall is good enough to hold the dash board in place and allowed me to temporarily install some pedals to run it on jack stands to test everything out. It developed a leak at the drain fitting in the radiator which the rad shop repaired with no hassle. I have a start up date of September 10th at the place where the engine was rebuilt which I'm understandably excited about. I started picking away at the tub and am very happy with the limited corrosion I'm seeing. Good thing these things sling grease and oil around like they tend to do .

[Lynn Eades]

Copper should be copper. Has anyone tried annealing the washers?
Copper work hardens pretty quickly and heating them to red hot softens them again.
In theory, should last for ever.

[Peter Phillips]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Copper should be copper. Has anyone tried annealing the washers?
Copper work hardens pretty quickly and heating them to red hot softens them again.
In theory, should last for ever.

Actually I did follow advice and annealed the new washers with success. Lots of instances on the inter-web around the same issues....you'd think it wouldn't be an issue but...

[Grant Bowker]

There are internet claims the same can be done with aluminum sealing washers (as used on BMW motorcycles and other applications) that have work hardened .

[Peter Phillips]

Took advantage of the nice weather to power wash and degrease the jeep tub in preparation for body and paint. What I didn't expect is for it to fall on my right foot. Luckily it was a glancing blow and not the full weight which I guess is around 300#. I don't think anything is broken as I can move around with minor discomfort, it's just swollen, even more this morning. I still might get an x-ray today to please the wife as my ears are bleeding from the nagging
And for the record there is only minor damage to the one tab under the tub that attaches to the frame, easy fix...tough old things they are!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Ouch!! Safety first, although in my younger days it wasn't always and I'm now surprised I didn't get more banged up than I did.

Now, if I stop making noise in the garage in pops the wife to ask if I'm still alive. Not sure if that's affection or getting the life insurance guy on the phone faster.

[Peter Phillips]

That's a good one Bruce, I guess time will tell which way she's leaning, lol. After the wife gave me poo poo, she said I should use an engine lift or something to lift it.....I said like the one that's folded up right there. Why is the obvious so out of reach sometimes

[Peter Phillips]

Took the Jeep down to Fort Saskatchewan for a start up at the engine builders place on Friday. I'm happy to report the start up went well and it's running nice and smooth. At normal running temperature, I have 25# of oil pressure at idle and 42# around 2000 rpm which I think is good. We did confirm that I need to do a carb rebuild to sort out a lean idle and hesitant acceleration. I was sorry to see that my interim gauge set-up didn't work so we stabbed on remote gauges to monitor the engine vitals. Maybe my wooden dash board is the cause of this as all the wires are hooked up correctly? I'm going to run remove the wheels and run this through all the gears and transfer case option to ensure I put everything back together correctly.

[Marc Montgomery]

Peter- love the work you're doing.


there seems to be quite a dialogue online among expert mechanics, (racers, hotrodders, bikers, restorers) and even manufacturers of copper gaskets re annealing... some say heat red and quench, others say heat red and air cool, because quenching rehardens the metal...
I was taught to quench, but am wondering now...???

[David Herbert]

Marc,
If annealing steel, it makes a huge difference how quickly you cool from red hot because of crystal growth within the steel. Copper does not really do this so it makes little difference how quickly it is cooled.
Also the copper items that are used in engines are of such small thickness that they will naturally air cool very quickly so the choice would be to slow the cooling process even more which would be difficult and pointless.

David

[Lynn Eades]

Following on from what David said, Quenching tends to clean the copper, so that's the plus there.

[Peter Phillips]

More positive news . I removed the wheels and put the jeep on sturdy wooden blocks and ran it through all gears and 2/4wd driving functions and it performed nicely. I just finished stripping and de-greasing the tub, tailgate, windshield frame and assorted floor plates in preparation for sand blasting on Friday. And what a surprise when a fellow member informed me that I need to ground my dash in order for the gauges to work, ....they now work .

[rob love]

You are lucky they work. I found that usually on those gages, the fuel in particular, as well as the temp and oil pressure, would burn out without a ground.
The later M-series added a short ground wire from the panels to the dash which helped prevent this. There are times that you have the dash backed out (cable or gage replacement) that turning on the ignition switch can have bad results.

Same goes for testing gages on the bench. You must provide a ground to the case or the negative stud before applying power and sending variable negative thru the wire.

[Peter Phillips]

Originally Posted by rob love

You are lucky they work. I found that usually on those gages, the fuel in particular, as well as the temp and oil pressure, would burn out without a ground.
The later M-series added a short ground wire from the panels to the dash which helped prevent this. There are times that you have the dash backed out (cable or gage replacement) that turning on the ignition switch can have bad results.

Same goes for testing gages on the bench. You must provide a ground to the case or the negative stud before applying power and sending variable negative thru the wire.

Interesting Rob, never knew that bit of info...thanks . I haven't tried the fuel gauge but the ammeter, oil pressure and temp works fine. Interestingly I don't remember seeing a ground symbol coming from anywhere on the dash....unless I missed that?

[rob love]

The gauges take their ground thru the case, or for the later plastic housed gages, thru the clamp and onto the studs on the back of the case.

Many guys test the gages on the bench by putting power to the power terminal and full negative onto the sending unit terminal. The results are usually quick and not good....you need the case grounded. Cheap insurance for any M-series vehicle is to run a ground wire from one of the screws for the panel lamp (use a longer screw than original so you can get a ring terminal, a couple of internal tooth lock washers, and a nut onto it) and run the ground wire to a screw behind the dash, such as the screws holding the circuit breaker in place. You can put a set of Douglas connectors in between to make it easier to remove the complete panel if that day ever comes, or leave it as a solid wire.

[Peter Phillips]

Great advice Rob, thanks. I'll install the ground mod as I have some spare Douglas connectors and wiring.

Got the tub stripped down and only broke one footman loop screw and have to drill one stripped screw out. My original sandblaster guy is AWOL now so the hunt is on to find someone that is competent to blast sheet metal

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by rob love

The gauges take their ground thru the case, or for the later plastic housed gages, thru the clamp and onto the studs on the back of the case.

Many guys test the gages on the bench by putting power to the power terminal and full negative onto the negative terminal. The results are usually quick and not good....you need the case grounded. Cheap insurance for any M-series vehicle is to run a ground wire from one of the screws for the panel lamp (use a longer screw than original so you can get a ring terminal, a couple of internal tooth lock washers, and a nut onto it) and run the ground wire to a screw behind the dash, such as the screws holding the circuit breaker in place. You can put a set of Douglas connectors in between to make it easier to remove the complete panel if that day ever comes, or leave it as a solid wire.

That's a disaster waiting to happen. A lot of vehicle gauges are the "hot wire" type that must have a resistance in series (i.e. the sensor) to limit the current, otherwise the "hot wire" will simply act as a fuse and melt, rendering the meter completely worthless.

Another meter type you cannot do this with is the thermocouple ammeter used in some radio equipment (may be marked "aerial current", "RF amps", "HF ammeter", or similar), where the measuring circuit is a very short piece of resistance wire (so it doesn't waste much of the transmitter power) with a thermocouple spot-welded to the middle of it. The meter movement has no air-damping vane attached (because the thermocouple is also low resistance and provides magnetic damping to the pointer movement), and if you touch a flashlight cell (even a tiny one like an AA) to the terminals, the short-circuit current through the resistance wire will blow it like a fuse.

A dealer did this before my very eyes at the War & Peace show (Beltring) one year, and made contact before I realised and shouted "Stop!"....

"What?"

"You've just destroyed that meter?"

"Nonsense, the needle moved."

"The needle moved _once_, and will never move again because you've blown the wire inside. Try it again and see."

(Dealer tries it, predictably nothing happens.)

"Do you still want it, I'll reduce the price?"

"No, it's beyond repair now." (etc.)

Pity really, it was for the Aerial Coupling Unit 'J' and one of the hard to find plug-in meters.

(I did spend some time explaining why he blew it, I don't know if the lesson stuck.)

This is why I normally carry a pocket multimeter to shows and radio rallies, so I can test them (safely) before purchase.

Chris.
p.s. There exist "Hot wire" RF ammeters as well, and they are just as fragile.