Holy Roller track type

[Jack Geratic]

At the Sherman Minutia website can be found an image of Holy Roller taken in May of 1944. I've added a screenshot for discussion purposes:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m...mbat/m4a2.html



Now an opinion on the tracks, they appear to be the rubber chevron type (T48). So given the date, it is quite likely these were the tracks it wore landing at Normandy?


regards,
Jack

[Ed Storey]

These Canadian RCA photographs were taken during the pre-D-Day move to the docks and show T48 tracks being used on both Sherman tanks and Priest SPs.

[maple_leaf_eh]

I published my technical description of Bomb on the Wikipedia page earlier this week, and scoured the Sherman minutia page too. Please have a look and let me know if I've made any grievous mistakes.

Holy Roller is one CT number off of Bomb, even though HR is two months older. For a tank made in the middle of a seriously big contract, I suggest the M3 bogies are a bit of a tall tale. There are chronologies for use of nonstandard parts, but the M3 was inferior to the mid-production M4 VVSS (location of the return roller, absence of the track skid, and if memory serves, the diameter of the actual volutes from 7" to 8"). Perhaps it was changed during operational stock storage in UK. There were M3s and Rams in use. I've included a snapshot of a Ram without its track and Bomb's right rear bogie for comparison.

Speaking of tracks, B Sqn Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment won a coin toss with A Sqn when 18 new tanks showed up in April 1944. The regimental history tells how the CO decided not to disperse the new tanks around the unit, but to completely reequip one squadron. The crews had about 4 weeks to get rid of the preservation greases and get the tanks running to peak performance. The attached photo came from Library and Archives, via Hal Skaarrup's busy Facebook page. Notice the type of track being installed.

[Jack Geratic]

Hello Ed, thank you for posting that great photo, but I don't think either of these vehicles is showing the rubber chevron track (T48). China Clipper looks to have some curve to their shape, so likely the T54E2 'cuff design'. It is a bit tricky because the image is of moving tracks, and the resulting motion blur makes the tread pattern appear much thicker than actual. The Priest appears to have T54E1 track, a type seen often in the early NWE campaign.



Terry, you make an interesting point about the early style VVSS, and thanks for pointing this out. I was quite surprised to see this on a Sherman just prior to D-Day. Although Bomb and Holy Roller are separated by 1 digit on their census numbers, they are a lot further apart looking at their American built serial number, 8007 and 7606 for HR - of course I've no idea what this means in the grand scheme of things.


regards,
Jack

[Colin Alford]

Jack,

Given the reported month of May ‘44 for the image, the state of the vehicle (water proofed and prepared for wading), and the chalked LCT number (1107/LCT4) displayed on the hull, I think it is probably a safe bet that this image shows Holy Roller sporting the same tracks that it would have had for landing in Normandy.

I have not seen any Loading Tables for any of the preparatory landing exercises to know if the craft serial numbers were re-used, but 1107/LCT4 is absolutely correct for Overlord (see attached).

Given the apparent state of preparation of this vehicle, I think it is unlikely that the track would have been subsequently changed (although it is possible).

The attached two images are from the 3 Cdn Inf Div War Diary and show two of the pages which detail the loading plan for serial 1107/ LCT IV.

These links will get you into the appropriate portion of the war diary to view the 3CID orders for Overlord. There is potentially info on when the unit/craft serials were allowed to be chalked on the vehicles, but I have not noticed that detail if it exists.


https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...620/29?r=1&s=4
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...20/204?r=1&s=4

[Colin Alford]

Jack,

Here’s some more info:

According to the 6CAR War Diary: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...57/117?r=1&s=3

The regiment moved from Lee-on-Solent to Fort Monckton on 19 May. If this image was taken at Lee-on-Solent then it should pre-date 19 May.

The diary also mentions that the loads were marshalled on 2 June.

Much of late-May was spent waterproofing and modifying vehicles, so it certainly is possible that the tracks were changed after this image was reportedly taken.

To me it seems odd that the landing craft serial would be chalked on the vehicle possibly 2 weeks prior to marshalling for the load, but I have not attempted to research this type of question before.

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

Hello Ed, . . . thank you for posting that great photo, but I don't think either of these vehicles is showing the rubber chevron track (T48).

The Priest appears to have T54E1 track, a type seen often in the early NWE campaign.

regards,
Jack

this may help your 105mm SP Priest (M7) track identification.


.

[Jack Geratic]

Hello Michael, thanks for the closeup of Carrie, it confirms what I had posted.

Colin, that is perfect timing with the war diary links, so thank you kindly for those. I will check further on these for any more clues later today.

In the meantime, have looked at my copy of the The Gallant Hussars by Michael R. McNorgan. The first three months of 1944 saw continued training on Valentines. The mention of Shermans is a mid April announcement that the unit would be re-equipped with the Sherman DD. The Vc Firefly is also introduced at this time. Only exercises that is eluded to is range work? New tanks had to be 'run in' for 100 miles, water proofed, followed by placement into storage at Fort Gomer.

On the 25th of April, they were inspected by the King. Only on the 26th were officers briefed on the invasion plans. Would it be correct to assume this is when load tables are revealed (and numbers), so that puts into question the Holy Roller photo time stamp?

regards,
Jack

[Colin Alford]

Jack,

Late last night I started into the 2 Cdn Armd Bde War Diary. It provides copies of some of the orders issued to 6 CAR during May which are not included in the 6 CAR War Diary. The briefing schedule for Overlord is included.

The HQ 2CAB diary for the period 20 Apr - 31 May was written as a narrative because “no daily records were made”. On approx 15 May, HQ 2 Cdn Armd Bde replaced all rubber track on Shermans and replaced them with steel track! This was done during their period of waterproofing and modifying their AFVs. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...51/937?r=1&s=4

While I haven’t noticed a written order to subordinate units to change all track to steel, 6 CAR was engaged with waterproofing and modifying their tanks the week after their higher headquarters. This modifying might have included changing any rubber track to steel.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

....

Terry, you make an interesting point about the early style VVSS, and thanks for pointing this out. I was quite surprised to see this on a Sherman just prior to D-Day. Although Bomb and Holy Roller are separated by 1 digit on their census numbers, they are a lot further apart looking at their American built serial number, 8007 and 7606 for HR - of course I've no idea what this means in the grand scheme of things.
...

The build numbers are actually quite close together. Fisher Tank Division was making 400 to 500 tanks a month on that one contract for 2000 M4s, and 4600 in just over 2 years on five contracts, out of a US total of 49,000-plus produced. When they got rolling, the daily through-put was staggering! Other more well read historians than me, come back to the high standardization of parts and components as central to US wartime production. If a shipment didn't meet inspection standards, it would be refused. If the supplier kept shipping bad parts, they'd lose their contracts. It wasn't just tanks but rifle parts to airplane parts.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Michael R.

this may help your 105mm SP Priest (M7) track identification.

Look at the shape of the chevron cleat and notice a small tab maybe 2" long in the gap between the track pads. That is a characteristic identification element of the T54E1.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

At the Sherman Minutia website can be found an image of Holy Roller taken in May of 1944. I've added a screenshot for discussion purposes:

....

Now an opinion on the tracks, they appear to be the rubber chevron type (T48). So given the date, it is quite likely these were the tracks it wore landing at Normandy?


regards,
Jack

Where are the casting dates on the suspension assemblies? You've given me a line for further research on Bomb.

[Colin Alford]

Terry,

If my understanding of Sherman production is correct, I don’t think there is anything incorrect with a Sept ‘42 M4A2 to have left the factory with the early VVSS suspension.

This page shows the month of production for the Fisher built M4A2s: http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m..._variants.html

My impression of the “interesting” aspect of this suspension on a NWE tank is that it appears that there weren’t many of these early vehicles still available in stock that hadn’t already been committed to other theatres.

Here’s a link to an LAC image which includes an M4A2 (presumably Canadian) with early suspension NW of Caen on 9 Jul 44: https://recherche-collection-search....Number=3226727

[Jack Geratic]

Hello Colin, thank you for digging out that memo concerning rubber track replacement during vehicle prep for D-Day.

Also that photo of Canadian Shermans operating with early VVSS suspension, that to me is like the proverbial smoking gun. Positive proof that they were acceptable for use in 1944. If I had to make a guess, these could be Sherbrooke Shermans based on the style of radio call sign numbers and size of squadron markings located on the turret storage bin.

regards,
Jack

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

Hello Colin, thank you for digging out that memo concerning rubber track replacement during vehicle prep for D-Day.

Also that photo of Canadian Shermans operating with early VVSS suspension, that to me is like the proverbial smoking gun. Positive proof that they were acceptable for use in 1944. If I had to make a guess, these could be Sherbrooke Shermans based on the style of radio call sign numbers and size of squadron markings located on the turret storage bin.

regards,
Jack

Good question and good photo. If I remember the Minutae pages correctly, the first Shermans sent to the British went to North Africa. Those had the characteristic deep sand shields we see in 8th Army photos. Churchill asked and Roosevelt kept shipping. The photo, the production dates for Holy Roller and Bomb, and the captioning of Holy Roller's M3 then M4 bogey assemblies make me think the British parked those tanks for war stocks and just kept parking more and more in the yards. Theoretically, last in-first out until the Ordnance Parks got to the last rows. I will send this picture to the author of the regimental history to see if he has any suggestions or inputs. Wait. Out.

[Colin Alford]

Jack,

No problem, I have enjoyed this research exercise.

Regarding the LAC image I linked in my previous post. Upon further research, the stated location of Gruchy, and the date of 9 Jul, does indicate that these are likely Sherbrooke tanks which are about to resume the advance with the SD&G Highrs on their way into Caen. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...8/1104?r=1&s=3

While attempting to determine if orders were given to 2 Cdn Armd Bde to change rubber tracks to steel, I looked at the Sherbrooke’s War Diary. (They included far more documents in their diary than 6 CAR (1H)!) while I did not find any evidence of direct communication that rubber tracks had to be changed out, I did find a critique regarding the rushed issue of unfamiliar vehicles in preparation for Overlord (see attached): https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...58/495?r=0&s=3

Given the various references to changing track, my opinion now is that it is likely that there was direction passed that any rubber track was to be swapped for steel prior to Overlord, and that Holy Roller likely had it’s rubber tracks pictured at the top of the thread swapped prior to the operation.

[Jack Geratic]

Terry, good analogy of last in-first out at the Ordnance Parks. Thanks for notifying the author of the regimental history.

Colin, thank you for the continued interest and more links.

Been thinking over the chalked loading codes on the side of the hull, and have read over at the missinglynx forums, that each beach had it's own set of ships allocated for the landings. Those for Juno were numbered in the 1000's range, and as these assigned numbers were secretive, it would be odd to see them on tanks prior to the actual event. Also missing is the the unit's mobilization number. For the Hussars this would have been 3/1

regards,
Jack

[maple_leaf_eh]

Me to Dan Braun:

Dan

I have been participating in a discussion on Maple Leaf Up forum with a fellow familiar with the 1H Holy Roller. It started with a question about track link types. He posted this photo -

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m...mbat/m4a2.html

The caption mentions Holy Roller had older style M3 tank style bogey assemblies for much of its operational service.

I challenged him that Holy Roller and Bomb are one registration number apart, and respectively made in Sept and November 1942. I suggested an M3 bogey on a mid-production M4A2 ought to be an anomaly; afterall, the plant was making 400-500 tanks a month at that time. Then the fellow found this photo because it also shows M4A2 Shermans with M3 bogies.

https://recherche-collection-search....Number=3226727

He wonders if in fact these aren't SFR tanks - the call signs, the squadron markings and the location. The photo metadata is 9 Jul 44, NW of Caen near Gruchy. Could these be SFR tanks?

Terry

From Dan Braun:

"Thanks for the info. I will take a look at the photos and see what I can make out, and then get back to you

As for an index, it would have meant having to cut about 10 pages of the text because I was living with a limit of 800 pages.

Daniel"

(In my opinion a book without an index is holding back half the influential horsepower it could have.)

[Jack Geratic]

So have looked at the Hussars diary for the months of March, April, and May of 1944. Not much new to add, but there was one exercise Fabius III that lasted about five days during the first week of May.

Prior to this was mention that on 28th of April that crews began painting white stars on their vehicles. Wonder if that is a white can of paint sitting atop of the turret ...



regards,
Jack