Sherman V CT150503 at Trois-Rivières, Québec

[Colin Alford]

Hanno,

I have compiled more documents, and will post them soon.

Colin

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

I have compiled more documents, and will post them soon.

Thanks Colin, am looking forward to it.

Meanwhile, Joe DeMarco sent me a small photo of another plaque:

There is (or was) a reference to Cathy on the plaque by the tank, "The Three Rivers Regiment used this Sherman Battle Tank during the Second World War in Sicily, Italy and Netherlands.
5235, Trois Rivieres QP plaque.jpg

The information on that plaque is just plain wrong, and should be corrected. It may be the same sort of case as what happened to Sherman V "Argyll Roger" at Oosterbeek. That has a made-up identity as well, based on ignorance and the will to please some stakeholders, rather than at least trying to get the facts about its history right.

[Ed Storey]

I wonder if the CGG know or even care that their Sherman "Ginny" has been appropriated by the TTR and given a complete BS back story along with a fake 17-pdr gun? Nothing surprises me when it comes to historical misinterpretation of vehicle artefacts in Canada, but this has to be the worst case I have ever seen.

[Ed Storey]

In a quirky twist of fate, a number of years ago the Canadian Grenadier Guards painted up a post-WWII M4A2E8 Sherman in wartime markings and placed it on a nice interlocking stone pad on the road leading into the Connaught Ranges Primary Training Centre which is located on the western outskirts of Ottawa. The Sherman is gone, having been replaced with a M109A4, although the plaque still remains. Only in Canada....

I am not a fan of outdoor display of military vehicles, but this would probably have been a better spot for a refurbished "Ginny", aka now "Cathy" then posing as a Three Rivers Regiment tank in Trois-Rivières.

IMG_4650 copy.jpg IMG_5837 copy.jpg IMG_5836 copy.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Agree Ed, that's why the research done on this (and other) forum is so important. By doing "crowd research" where everyone chips in with the snippets & chunks of info they have individually, the end result paints a complete picture.

Re. the M4A2E8 which was at Quebec, Colin posted an interesting link:

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

I also found this: https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remem...s/details/7102

Has the actual regiment that operated this tank been forgotten through the passage of time?

The note on that page is interesting:

"Note: This tank is no longer present at the Connaught Range Site. It was reclaimed by the Canadian War Museum and given to an indiviudal in Calgary, AB."

So the CWM gave a Sherman tank to an individual?!? Isn't that a sign of nepotism? At least they are transparent about it...

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

The note on that page is interesting:

"Note: This tank is no longer present at the Connaught Range Site. It was reclaimed by the Canadian War Museum and given to an indiviudal in Calgary, AB."

So the CWM gave a Sherman tank to an individual?!? Isn't that a sign of nepotism? At least they are transparent about it...

I would be interested in finding out the exact details of any vehicle transfer from the CWM before jumping to any conclusions; for as well have seen with "Ginny", it does not take long for a story to get changed.

[Colin Alford]

Ed/Hanno,

My intent is to compile this information to send to the affected Regiments/Regimental Associations so that they are aware of the historical documents. I suspect that between Jan 1946 (arrival of tank in Canada), and Nov 1955 (dedication of TRR Tankers Memorial) that the corporate memory of who the tank served with was lost. It also appears that the claims that the tank actually served with 12 CAR are relatively modern (most likely based on Lore).

The following posts detail all of the documents that I have found. I will attempt to clean it up and add some images later.

Colin

[Colin Alford]

War Trophy Tank Sherman V (M4A4 75mm) CT 150503

On 13 Nov 1955, CT 150503 with nickname “Cathy” was dedicated as a monument to the Three Rivers Regiment (12th Canadian Armoured Regiment (12 CAR)). At some point after the dedication a new plaque was added to the memorial which claims that this tank served with 12 CAR in Sicily, Italy and the Netherlands. I believe the claim that this tank served with 12 CAR to be incorrect.

I will attempt to prove that CT 150503 actually served with 22 Canadian Armoured Regiment - The Canadian Grenadier Guards (22 CAR) with the nickname “Ginny”

Sources:
1. Canadian Military Headquarters, London (CMHQ) file “1/War Trophy/1” (Extent of file: images 589 to 755) https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/589?r=0&s=1
2. War Diary – 22nd Canadian Armoured Regiment – Canadian Grenadier Guards (22 CAR)
3. War Diary – 25th Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment – The Elgin Regiment (25 CADR)
4. Directorate of Movements file “HQS-63-310-316, Ships Eastbound Cargo Vessels – S.S. Riverview Park, 5 Jan 46, Antwerp to St-John.” (Extent of file: images 4311 to 4357) https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...0/4311?r=3&s=2
5. The Montreal Gazette, 16 January 1946 https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...rontpage&hl=en
6. The St. Maurice Valley Chronicle, 10 Nov 1955 https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...rontpage&hl=en

[Colin Alford]

Chronology:

Early Jun 1944 (while 22 CAR was still in England): T 150503 listed as on-strength with 3 Sqn, 22 CAR as call-sign 22. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t12727/629

16 Jun 1945: “Fifty tank transporters came in this evening and relieved us of all of 1 and 2 Sqn tanks, and 11 of 3 Sqn’s. We now have left just 8- 3 Sqn tanks and 4 RHQ tanks and 11 Recce tanks (10 Stuarts and 1 Chaffee)” https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...30/849?r=1&s=2

(Note: B Sqn 25 CADR turned-over 49 ex-22 CAR tanks to 264 Special Delivery Squadron Royal Armoured Corps between 18 and 20 Jun 1945. CT 150503 was not among those 49. It is unlikely that CT 150503 was among the 11 - 3 Sqn tanks passed to B Sqn 25 CADR on 16 Jun 1945.)

21 Jun 1945: “First thing this morning all the wallabies, the RHQ tanks and 7 of the 3 Sqn tanks were loaded on transporters and taken away. We now have left 1 x 75mm of 3 Sqn which is to be used on a demonstration and 11 Recce tanks (10 Stuarts and 1 Chaffee)
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...30/850?r=1&s=2

(Note: It is most likely that CT150503 was one of the 7 – 3 Sqn tanks from 22 CAR that passed to 25 CADR on 21 Jun 1945)

27 Jun 1945 – CT 150503 (ex-22 CAR) passed through B Sqn 25 CADR to 264 Special Delivery Squadron Royal Armoured Corps. https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...42/896?r=0&s=3

11 Jul 1945 – “A Record in Unbroken Service” published in “The ’52 Natural’ Voice of the Canadian Grenadier Guards” regimental newspaper.
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...30/959?r=0&s=2

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Ed/Hanno,

My intent is to compile this information to send to the affected Regiments/Regimental Associations so that they are aware of the historical documents.

Colin, outstanding! That should set the record straight

I hope the custodians of CT-150503 will give the result of your research a serious thought and try to do everything to at least give "Ginny" her history back, and hopefully pass it back to the regiment she served in during the whole NWE campaign.