No. 19 set CONSULTING WANTED - installation of No 19 set in Staghound Armoured Car

[daninnm]

I'm calling Reg - but don't think he is a radio expert. Hoping to see if here is a am operator knowledgeable.... but I do have a call in to him....

This is what I have traced so far:::::

Studied the wiring diagram for the M-4 US TANK CIRCUIT in the No 19 set wireless book…. see if I am correct. Trying to use that as a basis for the Staghound wiring.
1. The Commander’s box controls the radio though the 12-pin cable that connects from his headphone ox to the radio itself.
2. The “Commander Call” button boxes (owned by the driver and bow gunner) and the two other guys in the turret is connected to
SPEECH – Terminal 2 in the Comm box
12 v+ Terminal 45 in the Comm box
SIGNAL Terminal 4 in the Comm box
MIC + Terminal 3 in the Comm box
MIC - Terminal 4 in the Comm box
Big Question: are the wires in the cable out of the No.1 and No.2 Mk II call boxes all the same color coding? I see six wires and a ground/shield around the entire 6-wire bundle.

On the M-4 diagram there is also a table that shows the wiring color from the headgear cords – is that color scheme follows through from the cords that come out of the boxes……?????
I have a large WHITE and LARGE BLACK
Large Black SIGNAL
Larage White Terminal between SIGNAL and SPEECH
Smaller: Blue GND’ed at box
Green GND Between MIC and EARTH
Red MIC
Yellow SPEECH
Pink between SIGNAL & MIC wires on No. 1 box terminal strip

Am I missing anything?????

[Chris Suslowicz]

On early AFVs there were a limited number of connections through the rotary base junction between hull and turret wiring. The Driver Intercom boxes (Junction, Distribution No 1 and No.2) had to make do with power and ground connections from the hull and the "Speech" (Intercom amplifier output) and "Signal" (buzzer call from J.D.1 to the Commander headset drop-lead).

There will be a cable from Control Unit No.1 (the commander's box) to the turret junction box to carry the Speech and Signal lines (I think) - unless they are passed through the WS19 supply unit on a 6-core cable, in which case the connections are Pin 2 for "Speech" and Pin 5 for "Signal".

The absolute minimum for an AFV is a single control unit No.1 (which must have the fuse removed) and a Junction Distribution No.1 (if required for Driver Intercom). Normally you find Control Unit 1 (Commander + Gunner) and Control Unit 2 (for the Wireless Operator) plus Junction Distribution No.1.

You will need the headsets with the gray "Tannoy" microphones for the Junction Distribution boxes. (They have carbon microphones and a 12V feed to the transformer in the J.D. to provide a high-level output on the "Speech" line.)

I hope this is some help. (I don't have any detail on the M-H armoured car.)

Chris.

[daninnm]

Awesome info.....I may send some pictures and a wiring diagram to see if I am getting it right!!! Thanks a ton!!!!!
I have the Commander Call box located in the hull between the driver and the bow gunner. I kow that is correct and the wiring goes through the commutator to the COMM BOX below the radio shelf.
From there I am connecting the COMMANDER's box to the No. 19 set with the cord that has the big 12-pin connector on it....12-pin on the BOX (I presume the two 12 pin sockets on the COMMANDER's BOX are the same internally and that can plug the cable into each) to 12-pin socket on the radio (lower left corner of the radio looking at it from the front). The other box on opposite side of the turret is for the gunner and veh. captain and it wires to the COMM BOX terminals (1 thru 6) and connects up the 1-6 connections on the driver co-driver cable.
I did not know abut the fuse - I will remove that tomorrow. I will post some photos of the set up and a block diagram I will make up to see if you can discern any problems with my wiring 'ideas'????
thanks!!!!!

[daninnm]

I have attached a DRAWING of my wiring diagram for the No. 19 set…. Comments welcome. I have two questions posed the bottom of the summary:
The system as it is currently wired; see the diagram too.
1. The DRIVER & BOW GUNNER box in the HULL (between them) comes into the turret basket underneath the COMMUTATOR and goes up a cable to the side of the COMM BOX just below the No. 19 RADIO.
2. The GUNNER controls the RADIO from his box with a rotary switch that says A B and A-B etc. and he sits on the RIGHT SIDE OF THE 37mm GUN. His box has TWO 12 pin sockets on it – one of top and one on side…. (I PRESUME THEY ARE parallel sockets and either could connect to the radio???? BIG ???)
3. The GUNNER control box connects via the Big 12-pin cable to the lower left-hand corner of the No. 19 set – Long cable with 12-pin sockets on each end. The socket must COME DOWN FROM THE TOP OF THE RADIO because it will not align with the socket’s notch unless it comes down from the top----cannot go in the bottom of the radio socket (wrong cable? Right cable: both ends are same ‘sense’!) – cable hits the radio tray so will not allow cable plug to go on the socket.
4. The DRIVER – BOW GUNNER box cable (coming up through commutator in turret basket) goes into the COMM BOX from below and is a 6-wire plus ground that attached to the COMM BOX terminals inside the box – no plug on that end.
5. The COMMANDER-LOADER BOX on left side of turret (does not control the radio) connects to the COMM BOX below the radio via a cable with 6-wires and ground. That cable has an Appleton connector into the commander call box and connects to appropriate terminals in the COMM BOX.
6. No other cable runs to the radio EXCEPT for the cable from the RADIO CONTROL BOX on right side of turret near the 37mm gun. The RADIO CONTROL BOX uses a 12-pin to 12-pin connector (see diagram attached)
QUESTIONS:
a. Is there another cable I am missing? COMM BOX to Radio? Or COMM BOX to the RADIO CONTROL BOX (one with the two 12-pin sockets?)
b. Is the notch on the cable I am using to the lower right of the No. 19 set the WRONG cable and I need one with a notch in another position?
c. COMMENTS GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!????

D NM
505-269-2056

[Chris Suslowicz]

Hi Dan,

1) Driver + Bow Gunner are connecting to Junction Distribution No.1 or No.3 box with the "Call Commander" push button on it. This is intercom only, and which one is fitted depends on the number of slip-rings available in the rotary base junction to the turret. No.1 is the early type and just has Speech & Signal available, so gets +12V and Ground from the vehicle electrics and requires the "Tannoy" power microphone version of the headset (the grey lollypop). Later vehicles had more slip-rings available and used J.D.3 which fed Mic+ and Mic- through the junction and allowed the standard (black bakelite) Microphone and Headgear to be used.

2) The Gunner is actually the Wireless Operator/Gunner and has Control Unit No.2 with a red light on it and two switches: set selector (A, IC, B) and rebroadcast (Normal / Rebroadcast). The red light indicates "A set unattended" and will come on if none of the headsets are switched to the 'A' set. The 12-pin connectors are a pass-through, one will go to the WS19 and the other will go to the commander's control unit (No.1 or 1A, probably.)
Cable from radio usually goes into the connector on the side of CU2 and the cable between CU2 and CU 1 (or 1A) into the top one on each box (I think).

3) Early cables (brown paxolin inserts) were supplied in sets for specific installations and were crimped and/or soldered in the required connector orientation. This proved to be a big mistake (from a production/logistics point of view) and later cables (black bakelite inserts) could be changed in the field when the radio was being installed. If you have the later cables and remove the spring clip around the cable entry, the back cover can be lifted, unlocking the rear part of the shell. You can then (carefully, as the cable may be fragile after 80 years) rotate the rear portion to the desired position, lock it in place with the back cover, and re-fit the spring clip.

4) Is the Driver/Bow Gunner box a Junction Distribution No.1 or a No.3?

5) is the Commander/Loader box in the turret a Control Unit No.1 (or 1A) or a Junction Distribution No.1 or No.3? I think it should be a C.U.1 (or 1A).

6) a - maybe. It depends on the number of slip-rings in the rotary base junction. Early AFVs required the use of J.D.1 and 2 because there were only 2 spare circuits, later ones used J.D.3 and 4 with standard headsets. The early type had a 6-way cable from the WS19 Supply Unit to the turret junction box to allow for 2 x 12V feeds (split 24 volt vehicle power), SPEECH and SIGNAL. The later version used a cable from Control Unit No.1 to get the SPEECH, SIGNAL, Mic+ and Mic- into the lower hull (and used the IC Amplifier and standard headsets instead of +12V and Power Microphones).
The M4 Sherman wiring diagram shows both options (I think), which is confusing to the unwary.

b - later cables can be re-polarised to suit the intended application.

c - Argh! It's 01:37 and I have work tomorrow...

Good Morning!

Chris.

[daninnm]

CHRIS: many many thanks for that tutorial!!!!
I may have another question or two but you have cleared up a few things for me....I have some spare cabling so that is the issue.... I think that the long 12-pin plug to 12-pin plug cable actually needs another box than the early No1 box on gunner commander side of turret I am using. My commutator has two terminals below and five above...later model I think. I will look into that - I may have the wrong box over there.
the comments about reversing the lug is well taken - I will try that tomorrow to solve the cabling run problem we are having because of the radio tray sticking out past the end of the socket....shot of turret interior psoted

[maple_leaf_eh]

I knew very little about wartime radio installations at the beginning of the conversation, and now I am just a little smarter for it!

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by daninnm

CHRIS: many many thanks for that tutorial!!!!
I may have another question or two but you have cleared up a few things for me....I have some spare cabling so that is the issue.... I think that the long 12-pin plug to 12-pin plug cable actually needs another box than the early No1 box on gunner commander side of turret I am using. My commutator has two terminals below and five above...later model I think. I will look into that - I may have the wrong box over there.
the comments about reversing the lug is well taken - I will try that tomorrow to solve the cabling run problem we are having because of the radio tray sticking out past the end of the socket....shot of turret interior psoted

No sign of an image, but I did a bit of "research" last night... lots of photos od the T17E1 but they're either exterior shots or there's no radio kit fitted.

At one point I got sidetracked into the Marmon-Herrington, which only has a crew of three (so could get away with a single control box for the commander and a junction distribution for the driver and bow gunner), but the T17E1 has a crew of 5 so will be more like a Sherman, and I suspect those drawings will be a good match. It's also late enough to use JD3 for the intercom box in the hull and the same headset assemblies throughout.

Need some interior photos of crew and radio positions - if it's two in the turret (commander & gunner) and three in the hull (driver, bow gunner, loader), then it might just use a single control unit No.1 for commander and gunner, and junction distributions 3 & 4 for everyone "down below". If not, maybe Control Units 1 (Commander & Gunner) and 2 (Wireless operator) and a J.D.3 in the hull for Driver and Bow Gunner. The Junction Distribution boxes would be fed from Control Unit No.1 via the turret and hull junction boxes.
(Because you need both microphone leads plus the "Signal" line and those won't fit in the 6-way power connector.)

Maybe I should write this up neatly, with diagrams?

Chris.