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  #1  
Old 13-11-22, 22:48
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
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Default P-63 movement

I suspect the P-63 flew into the B-17 completely unaware it was in his path. Banking, power on, speed rising to join a formation, no downward visibility, and another aircraft closing underneath. A lot of attention will be paid to the location of the show line, and the pre-show briefs.

In a very sad way of saying, perhaps it was for the best that the incident aircraft broke apart and all concerned died suddenly. No one for the lawyers to sue.

Vintage aircraft are a complicated subject in US civil aviation circles. Another B-17 operated by the Collings Foundation crashed a few years ago that was mechanically unsafe, it had half a dozen passengers along for an experience flight, and the aircrew weren't talking to each other very well. The pilot really wanted to get flying, and the maintainers weren't going to cross him or each other to say, 'that airplane can't fly on three engines no matter how much we want it to'. But, the public clamours to see them and the owners want to show their airplanes. The FAA can't easily order everything made before XXXX date to be grounded.
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  #2  
Old 15-11-22, 03:30
Lang Lang is offline
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Accidents happen, that is life.

Why do people who do not own or fly the aircraft want them grounded and deprive millions from seeing them in their proper environment.

Very rarely do airshow accidents involve public casualties, probably far less a proportion than car race/rally accidents. One member of the public killed in an airshow accident is headline news, five people killed in a car rally accident is on page 5. Are we to ban motor racing?

If the public is not involved it is nobody's business but the willing participants.

An aircraft in a museum is just a dead lump of metal - even collections in hangars and museums have been destroyed by fire.

In the air it is living history

Just on that particular accident. It was not crowded airspace, they were all going in the same direction, well spaced, on a briefed course with very little danger. I have no idea where the P63 was supposed to be but I suspect the fighters may have had a stream of their own joining the bombers in front of the crowd 500 feet higher. Either the B17 was too high or the fighter too low but the bomber was certainly in his blind spot underneath. Human error like 99% of the 200,000 car accidents around the world every day.

Here is a clip showing amateur private pilots not only in formation which is practiced and controlled but everyone doing their own thing landing in crowded conditions far closer and more risky than a flyover - and nobody died.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o51KWkTpSY

Last edited by Lang; 15-11-22 at 03:57.
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  #3  
Old 15-11-22, 08:03
Lang Lang is offline
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Here is a nicely colourised B17 movie of them at work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4bLpU5mf0
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  #4  
Old 19-11-22, 08:24
Lang Lang is offline
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Here is a magnificent detailed look at the B17 involved in the accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLpBBbhzlL8
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  #5  
Old 19-11-22, 09:22
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Thanks for your insights as an aviator, history buff and collector, Lang

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lang View Post
Here is a magnificent detailed look at the B17 involved in the accident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLpBBbhzlL8
That's poignant footage as the maker of that video, Kevin "K5" Michels and two of the crew on that flight, Leonard "Len" Root and Curt Rowe died in the crash of Texas Raiders. See the rest of the airmen involved in the tragic accident at Wings Over Dallas on the Commemorative Airforce website: https://commemorativeairforce.org/ne...-the-kingcobra

I'd say they died doing what they loved most, apart from being a pal, friend, father, husband, son to their loved ones. May they rest in peace.
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  #6  
Old 19-11-22, 21:49
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
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The armchair analysts have been all over this accident.

One of the more informed observers I've seen suggested the bombers were in one stream with about 1000 ft off the spectator line, and the fighters about 1500 ft off. The P63 was third of the fighters, and he seems to have been closing too fast on the second fighter. The suggestion is he backed off by widening his turn. At closing speeds, that put the P63 into the bombers' track.

For the HMV crowd, I draw the lesson of speed and direction control, especially when moving in convoys or packets. When the Swords and Plowshares Museum puts its vehicles on the road for Canada Day parades, the experienced drivers keep reminding the others that drum brakes aren't as responsive as disks and turn signals are either tiny or done by hand. There is another column characteristic of accordioning with the last few vehicles either hard on the gas or standing on the brake pedal.
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- 74-????? M151A2
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- 53-71233 M100CDN trailer

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  #7  
Old 21-11-22, 00:13
Lang Lang is offline
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Terry

The Crowd Line is a legal distance (differs in different countries) away from the do-not-cross Display Line. The aircraft have no interest in the Crowd Line all their attention is focused on the Display Line which is always very well marked eg a taxiway, canal, airfield boundary fence or large white panels.

Aircraft may not turn towards or fly over the crowd. Any flight over the crowd can not involve manouevres or be part of a show and is usually a straight line above 1,500 feet such as the arrival of a formation from the rear for effect. Most shows will not allow even this.

Mass loose flypasts are almost impossible to accurately separate horizontally.

It would be very unusual for two groups arriving on different paths to be separated horizontally at the same height. In fact I would go so far as to say never.

One other thing you must remember, particularly with fighters, is these aircraft are often flown by wealthy geriatrics well past their prime. Time and again you can tell from their operation and radio calls they are so far behind the aircraft and what is going on around them that they may as well be still on the ground. They can pass a check ride when nothing stressful is happening, operating in a show with others providing surprises around you is another thing. Nearly all of them have giant egos and don't know when to quit. The bombers on the other hand are also often ancient-mariner piloted but they have the benefit of a second opinion and many extra eyes looking out.

Groups can be very accurately separated vertically and I believe in this case they were and somebody got it wrong.

Lang

Last edited by Lang; 21-11-22 at 03:21.
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