Early Pattern 11 Chev 4x2 ??

[Joe Lorenzino]

One of the trucks stored in my yard is going off to a new home in a museum in Northern Alberta. Took a few pictures of it after we moved it out for them to pick it up. Looks like an Early model, as it has no vents on the front, and what looks like a Ford pattern grill. Going through the pictures, it appears that this Might have been #138 off the assembly line??

[Tony Smith]

Not so much where is it going to, but where has it come from?

[rob love]

I believe I know this truck. Was/is the owner's initials DB?
We recovered it off a farm site near Swift current back in the mid 90s. It was, indeed, the 138th off the line. The ferret tires were picked up from the Beechy surplus dealer.



As one of the early trucks, it had a key ignition. I think I still have the ignition switch out in the garage for this truck. I was going to try and make up the key.

[Joe Lorenzino]

That would be the unit. DB still owns it, but has moved to somewhere outside of Edmonton. He has donated it to their local vehicle museum. I believe they plan on putting some form of Grain Box on it to show what resourceful farmers were doing with them after the war. His brother was there to help get it out of its Long Term parking spot, and lined up for easy trailer loading. DB called to see if the tyres were flat! Both brothers were Amazed that they weren't.. until I pointed out that they are RF's, and "Flat" was Not a condition that they were capable of. I believe they said the truck originally came from around Neville, SK., and May have been part of a "field Recovery" training mission??

[rob love]

I blew the inner tube on one of those tires on my KL welding lorry back n the day. We had stopped about 20 minutes out of Winnipeg, and were towing the truck behind an MLVW to go to a DND parade. We ended up towing it the rest of the way to Winnipeg, drove it downtown and through all of the parade, back to the base, and finally replaced the tire before the trip home. The KL is one heavy CMP, yet you could not tell that tire was flat.

That was a nice truck with lots of potential. I think I would have preferred seeing it go to a private collector to have restored to original, but in the end it's his truck to do as he pleases.

[Bob Carriere]

Do you realize how rare that truck is....... if the almost prestine registration tag is correct..... it was made in the first run starting April 1940.....and although it sports a Ford grill it is a CHEV...... has no side lights installed, now air vents... and probably no device to drive with the doors open inhot weather...... probably no rear axle black our convoy light......

Would be nice if some one from the area gained access and took XXXXXXXXX number of pictures of both inside and out...... underneath etc.....

What happened to the repro wooden box that (Cletrac) had built and liquidated at his auction????? it was well made and woould be most appropriate for the early release.

[Bob Carriere]

Running board seems of a different style.....

One Ford door handle missing......

Typical Ford grill on early Chev......possible part shortage.....

Nose sheet metal may have been removed/replaced and original flat head screws and washers replaced with regular bolt heads.

One the radiator cover.... the shroud that actually covers the radiator.....3 fasteners on each side........ to my knowledge it is near impossible to re-install one of these 3 bolts after the assembly line manufacturing...... you remove it but can get to the back side and does not have a hidden caged nut.

Front bumper is bent steel and not C channel....

Front brush guard was probably not installed on the original factory built....

Below the radiator the sheet metal is missing.....

Alex .... Paul.... any other things you might have noticed????

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Great to see such an early truck! I hope they put it back in military configuration. This is not just any old truck which farmers turned into a grain truck...

[Joe Lorenzino]

Weather has changed here to snow & 50-65K winds. Will ask them to take more detailed pictures when it is on the trailer, or at its new home before they change anything.

What is the earliest serial # from this First lot that we Know still exists as a vehicle??

Believe there is another early one in the Ponteix area, but have not seen it in years.
Private guys from Moose Jaw came down in the 80's/90's and picked up the Original 2A1 box, but the truck was Not for sale.
It has since changed hands, but believe it never left the area.

Can't remember if I got my Ferret RF tyres from Rob, or the used dealer in Medicine Hat, along with some 1100-16 Michelin XZLs.
Have them on my 54 Fargo Power Wagon winch truck.
Will allow Lifting to Max capacity with no air, but tend to shear the valve stems off if not inflated, as the powder coated civilian wheels do not allow the use of bead locks.

[Bob Carriere]

First thank you Joe for the presence of mind of documenting that cab 11. It is certainly worthwhile trying to gather as much info/pictures as possible for this vehicle and the other possible one suspected to exist out West.

Hanno......... what ever happened to the older registry that a few well guided individuals put together in the late 70s or 80s...... they were done possibly pre computers and a labour of love to say the least. Are there any digital copies still recoverable and could they become a separate thread on MLU???? I envision a special thread that would allow individual to enter their own information and the Forum system would automatically sort them out in descending numbers and sortable by date, location, current owner, etc.
....is such a thing feasible so that once created it would be self maintaining??

There are rumours of a very very early Ford in the outskirts of Ottawa. I have seen the vehicle but did not inspect closely at the time as I was disappointed with the fact it had the later version louvered air vents ........ but certainly worth a second visit which I will do a.s.a.p before it gets worst here around Ottawa.

Winter time is certainly not the best weather wise to go trampling in backroads to check out things but it could be the best time to search out existing copies of these early registry.

I tend to take pictures of every cab 13 data plates I come across......sadly usually missing along with the engine covers of earlier cab 11 and 12 and would happily share on MLU. MLU members must rememebr that only those pictures actually posted on the Forum remain in archives of MLU all other Photo site that provided posting services are very much time sensitive and will disappear eventually. Can the current format of MLU handle the extra documentation and the storage requirements????

I am sure that many of us have in our computers photos or other data that could be pulled together to further document current or even past information.

To allow us to dream ......is it time to remember our timely $$$ contribution to the up keep of the Forum?????

Cheers

[rob love]

I suspect you are talking about Peter Ford's infoex. He recorded every number he could find. This was in the pre-internet days. Once can only imagine what could be achieved now.



I have not seen an earlier Chev unless you go into the pilot and protoype vehicles. I always regarded serial 138 as the earliest production vehicle, but there were 137 earlier examples so who knows?

[Joe Lorenzino]

Just received pictures of the truck in the farmer's yard before it was recovered in the summer of 96. Appears to have gained and lost a couple of things along the way..
Were the marker lights on the roof Standard for all licensed trucks at that time??
Have found them an virtually ALL CMPs recovered so far??

[Joe Lorenzino]

Here are some Old photos of the "Ponteix" truck, which appears to be a near twin to the DB "Neville" truck above. I had taken these back in the mid 70's when the original owner farmed near the family homestead, and was a friend of my Uncle. Again a Chevy with a Ford grill, pressed steel bumper, no front vents, ETC.
After the owner passed away, his son got it running again, ( may have rebuilt the engine ) and it was sold to a nearby neighbour with a passion for collecting. Believe he too has passed on, but that the truck is still in his family.
The 2A1 box was still out in the pasture when these pictures were taken. It had been unbolted set on some blocks, and was in very pristinely "complete" condition. It ended up on another Pattern 11 4X2 restoration in Moose Jaw. Note missing roof fasteners, and farmer applied galvanized conduit hold downs.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Lovely truck!

I do have to comment on the grille; It's not a specific Ford grille. Cab 11's, Ford and Chev, used the same style grille made of woven mesh. The Diamond pattern style grille for Chev's wasn't introduced until cab 12 production and even those sometimes had square mesh or even a combination of diamond and square woven mesh.
My Cab11 C8 also had the keyed ignition, so it could be that these were also used until the later part of 1940, although mine could have been added later in it's life.


David Hayward did have the truck in his files; which can partly be found here:
http://hotrod.gregwapling.com/chev-t...dian-chev.html

[Bob Carriere]

Now that I have saved everything in a new folder I have some questions?comments....

I believe that Yes there may have been a requirements for all trucks to look like trucks and most CMP had roof lights added...... so it would look like a truck.

Now has a restored vehicle, at least in Ontario and not used commercially it can be made to comply to the lighting supplied at time of manufacture.... however it may not be very safe t drive after sun set as the original lights are not really that visible.......

Also nothing new with the make shift "galvanized roof stays"..... they served a purpose and often seen on long living CMPs in Australia where they used a small steel cable to the same end....... that is to keep the cab together and keep the roof from flapping in the breeze at speed.....

Now the hasty design (British influenced) called for a trapezoid shaped cab/roof design that was held rigid by a back wall bolted to the floor and the roof upper section bolted to the windshield support with a wooden skelton frame...... wood dried up, the screws became loose and ....voila ,,, a flapping roof section that need to be held down....so a rigid pipe of r a steel cable resolved the problem quite well. The whole cab design was typical of the wooden vehicle frame of the period, Add to this rough road driving and the habitual boarding process of the occupant who very gingerly hoisted themselves aboard by putting most of their body weight on the fully open poorly hinged door......... then slamming it shut. So the door sagged and the rear cab wall was stretched and the roof wooden connection too the rigid windshield wooden link failed...... hihihi..... and some times the door latch would not keep the door closed as the door cab opening got longer and the latch protruding device was lengthened with a brazed extension to allow it to latch....... all to be restored later by use collectors.

Alex...... your comments are very appropriate as I do not recall ever seeing a cab 11 with ou the proverbial Chevy wooven grill......... and I do have some cab 12 wooven grills as well........always explained it has part shortages and the rush to move vehicles off the plant floor......I beleive the same things happened to Fords with GM axles...... I am also aware of an very very early cab 11 CGT unrestored vehicle with particularly weird GM heavy duty cast rear and front axles..... not to mention the odd Ford GS with a GM front axle cast mixed to rear Ford axle other version and Ford GS with two GM late version GM axles. It seemed that keeping the production line going was top priority. Of course we can't discount later field repairs with mix parts as they were available...... confusing to say the least.

Now if we could only see the data plates of the second cab 11 from Ponteix...

Now as to the key ignition mentioned by Alex.......... what is the prevailing story....... is it that all early models had keys..... and that became cumbersome in the service so the key was replaced my a funny little chromed device that was permanently installed in the key slot???? any idea when that changed occurred????..... as in only seen keys on cab 11 with no vents???

Puzzling ........ must check my photos of earlier dash set up on C8......


One puzzling question, then I am out of here for supper.....
I tried to make a copy of the link you attached for the detailed production info by David but keep hitting the proverbial post smack between the yes....

How do I save a copy for reference in my hard drive????

It's been fun now for a beer.

BobC

[Alex van de Wetering]

I tried to make a copy of the link you attached for the detailed production info by David but keep hitting the proverbial post smack between the yes....

I would try either pressing Ctrl+P and than save/print as a PDF.....or press Ctrl-A to select all text and drop in a Word file so you can save, or print, it. I do know the link has come up on the forum before and Hanno even made a sticky for it.

Bob, the most important question....is it supper or beer? Or a combination of both?
I have had enough beer....I am off to bed

[rob love]

One way to save it is, when you are on the page, right click and select "take screen shot". Then when it gives you a choice, select "save full page". That will get you the entire database. When you open it, it will be small.. You will have to enlarge it to readable and use your curser to scroll down.

[Bob Carriere]

WE had Atlantic snow grabs with sticky mushroom rice AND beer.....

Now to get back to Alex about the ignition key issue.....

Is it safe to assume that very early CMPs had the off the shelf ignition switch with unique keys.....which became cumbersome in service...... so all further model had the ignition key modified with the addition of a chromed insert permanently installed so any one could start the vehicle.....

Here are two photos of instrument clusters...

First one is a very very early C8 Cab 11 ( no registration plate on the engine cover)........ switch lettering looks silk screen printed???
"HEATER" ( Yes it did have a small circular civilian heater located in the pass foot well) a "PLATE" switch ( license plate?) and the last one barely readable as "PANEL" for the lights inside the civilian cluster.

The second photo is my C15a....serial 035xx so not a very early model with vents but NO marker lights on the front fenders, no hooks on dash, no rear axle convoy light, no water expansion tank........

Are there other "ODDITY" that would help identify veryearly production CMPs?

On the David H. listing ....... I do have a copy but was obsessed with how to capture a copy of the link.....and could not remember how to do it. Will now try out the suggested tricks.....

....and tonite for a light supper.....assorted cold cuts, prosciutto, shrimps, soft cheese, Dried Summer German sausage, Italian bread sticks and a cold bottle of ( in honor of our friend down under) Australian Blue Oyster Chardonnay.......

Bon appetit.........

first picture is my cab 11 the other the early C8

[Bob Carriere]

Alex's trick worked............. Rob my computer on right click did not give me the option to "take screen shot" ...... but select all and when I try to copy in another folder I get a blank.....

Anyways I got it in my reference documents twice now....... separate drives.

Thanks

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Alex

Could not find any information that is even remotely similar to the serial number of my C15a.... which reads 0 8444 03851...... model 84-44 originally had a Tonawanda(buffulo) engine......

Is there a listing of the 10 digit serial number just for the CMPs????

One could question if the serial numbers were sequencial by model ##_## or sequential to the assembly line when there are photos of assembly lines showing CMPs mixed with MCP and other vehicles.....

Clive had written that 11,000 Ford and 10,500 Chevs were assembled/built between star of production to Dec. 31st 1940 but not specifying if that included
MCP, and other vehicles!!!! in 1941 they did 61061 vehicles.....?

Still digging now in the parts book for info on :first series or for those built after serial XXXXXX for clues.

Bob C

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Hi Alex

Could not find any information that is even remotely similar to the serial number of my C15a.... which reads 0 8444 03851...... model 84-44 originally had a Tonawanda(buffulo) engine......

Bob, The website is a bit confusing as it shows David's info combined with info from other sources (I think)....so, you have to scroll down a bit to find David's CMP listings, sorted by year and type. Your serial is in there along with the engine number and date plate info, even though it's listed as a cab 11. Judging from the number, your C15A is a very early cab 12!
Have you seen the C15A that recently came up for sale here in Holland? it has a serial close to yours.
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=33736

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Still digging now in the parts book for info on :first series or for those built after serial XXXXXX for clues.

Yes, there are much more clues to be found in the parts book.......I had a brief look yesterday for the grill.....but haven't had a chance yet to look at the key/lock thing and other details. There is lots of interesting stuff in there....also details that we think are odd, or early, but sometimes they are just British

Scan from the parts lost attached in regards to the Cab11 grill.....it has a Ford part number....but also a Chev one.


we are really missing the David's here, Pope and Hayward in these sort of discussions!

[Alex van de Wetering]

Another early feature we spoke about on the forum before is the small dash light located in the centre of the dash, just below where the hard lines from the windscreen wiper enters through the dash.....but I can't remember if it was specificaly an early feature, or rather a sort of optional thing.......time for a forum search!

My C8 also has the hooks to put the doors in open position, but the location of the holes suggest they were added after production.....also the cutout in the flange of the cab rear wall behind the drivers seat....on mine it looks rather crude, so most likely a later mod during service.

Other early features that come to mind....rubber gasket in stead of canvas under the nose panels next to engine lid/cover/hood/panel-thingy. Round mounting holes in the supports for the front fenders (under the headlights), in stead of oval holes.

[Bob Carriere]

HI Alex.....

....and in my own backyard.

Wrapping upCMPs for the Winter season and the C15 has a very good registration tag on the engine cover......O 8421 01189 so.... 1940....
2 wheel drive .... serial 01189......

Has rubber gasket on engine cover (cab11) .....found the remains of a little light centered on the dash face and the vacuum line is on the flat part ofthe dash just below the windshield central post...... no door hooks, no strap to keep doors from hitting cargo box... of course no cargo box....

Now I realize how to read the first model vs second type cab.....

When they say before 084 xx 04001......... made in 0 or 1940 parts used before serial number 4001 and the XX implies that the part was used on model 84 in 2 or 4 wheel drive XX meaning more universal such as panel parts.....

some before parts have date until Oct 1940.....so parts where used from start up (April 1940??) to October `1940

....some have 184 XX 05147 to 284 XX 10201 and some times a date

We always knew that changes occurred during production and some times older parts where available and used when current parts where short.

Best example is contract PE-175 for Australia....C60L with helper springs and C15a small axles front and rear with 16 inch rims/tires made Sept 1944 as cab 13 BUT with the old civilian rectangular instrument cluster..... manufactured late in Canada and never delivered but liquidated locally....

This is like digging up in the sands of Egypt.......

Somewhere on the forum or inmy manymixed up[ pictures I have a shot of an assembly line showing a cab 11 mixed with cab 12 and one 12 having a rigid windshield....... obviously during transition..... I will run across it one day...

Keep shoveling.....

Bob

[Mike K]

These early production CMP's have fixed rear vision mirror arms which are often broken off, the arms are something like a steel casting and are tapered .

A few cab 12 Chev 4x2 15cwt have turned up here in Victoria, used to be one in Ryan's yard on New Dookie road, Shepparton, another example was residing down at Geelong- that vehicle was bought by Malcolm D. and there was another one over at Boisdale in Gippsland that was offered to me . These 15cwt trucks look more balanced in appearance compared to the 8cwt with their little 13" rims.

The Ford version has turned up too, was one over in the Western district at Edenhope I could have bought.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Mike

Yes those arms were stiff cast steel I believe subject to bending and braking.

....and I have seen 3 different lenght...possibly some long ones for the Chev gun tractor with the weird seating arrangement....... I even have a pair cast in brass...

Later a special small cast iron device was created to install the flexibile arm of the cab 13 model..... it actually bolts to the same two bolts of the windshield support bracket. I believe that the adaptor came with the cab 12.......

Cheers

[Paul Singleton]

Hi Bob, is that my old cab 11 that you are referring to? I’m glad it’s providing information on the build differences of early trucks and probably causing more questions for discussion.
Thanks.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Paul

It is the very same and providing us at the barn with a learning opportunity as it seems very complete...... and the 01189 serial number makes it early but it has the vents, and rubber trimming around the bonnet opening...... and the remain of that strange mid dash light..... can't recall seeing such a light in its complete new condition...... all that is there is the socket and the remains of a small bulb......

Small world...

[Paul Singleton]

Here’s a couple that would probably suffice if you’re interested.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/354324941056

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/155107314926

[Paul Singleton]

Here is a picture of the early c-15 Bob is referring to.

[rob love]

Here is a shot of an early data plate I have kicking around. I don't even know where I got it from, but it's close to the one Paul shows. If someone needs it, I don't have chevs in my yard (environmental concerns...they leak so much damn oil) so it's available to someone who needs it.