Shovel ID?

[Lang]

I thought the webbing comment would create some discussion. Many of us of older years have worn the British gear.

The problems to my mind were the lack of flexibility in "fine tuning" to suit the load and personal shape with stiff straps and fixed attach points. Photos show the gear riding up or hanging down, many belts up around their rib cages. Most countries developed a multi-hole and/or sliding buckle system in belts and load-bearing points to allow quick change, according to load and individual comfort as the British started to do post-war.

The webbing itself was far too thick and inflexible and I am sure other armys' thinner softer more comfortable webbing lasted just as long. Once again the British softened their post-war webbing.

Lastly and most importantly the British put those useless square buckles on everything from personal kit to vehicle and equipment straps and persisted right up to modern times.

You can not get them tight easily, you can not adjust them quickly and easily and if you do manage to get them tight they are really hard to loosen off. The hook, spring or lock slide, pull-through buckles of the Americans and many others and even the old fashioned trouser-belt pin and hole type buckle were far more user friendly.

As far as the jerkins go, only a miniscule number of the millions of British Empire troops were issued them and their existence alone said they realised there had to be something better. You can see photos of African big game hunters in what are now commonly known as "photographers jackets" with 20 pockets and pouches going back to the late 1800's. I can not believe the stuff the boys now carry in their multi pocket, modular unit kits although the day of mass moving whole units on a route march on foot 50 miles in 2 or 3 days is long past.

All sorts of legends about the weight soldiers carried, particularly WW1, but I bet most modern infantrymen would be very happy to revert to a WW1 soldier's load.

Hanno probably a new thread.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Lang

As far as the jerkins go, only a miniscule number of the millions of British Empire troops were issued them and their existence alone said they realised there had to be something better.

Again, this must be your take on the Assault Jerkin as it is not supported by any period documentation. In fact, the design was well-liked and considered ground-breaking to the extent that it was copied by the Americans.

Rather than using images of reproduction items lifted from other websites, I prefer originals and have attached a photograph of a 1942 Pattern Battle Jerkin from my collection.

Assault (Battle) Jerkin - Brown - front copy.jpg

Of course, you can always find out the full story of the Assault Jerkin by having a look at this book that was published in 2014.

Assault Vests - 2014 ISBN 978-1894581-99-8 - Storey.jpg

[Lang]

Ed

I never said the assault jerkins were no good in fact I said they were better.

What I did say is the idea was not new and they never replaced the standard webbing throughout the forces and the bulk continued with their normal stuff. A lot of that safari vest/jerkin heritage can be found in modern equipment.

The photo of the reproduction is far superior to anything I have seen to demonstrate the fine detail to those - including me - who are not up with all the serial numbers but are interested to see what is being talked about.

It is interesting that people get defensive when something is not praised or at least accepted just because it was used in service. Times must have been better then because in my time in the army I was confronted with lots of probably expensive but very inferior fit-for-purpose items. I did a stint in UK in the 70's and was equally disappointed by some of their stuff we were given.

The most amazing thing to me is since the time of the Egyptians no army in the world was able to keep their soldiers perfectly dry in all weather with active rain gear. Jockey sized men would weigh as much as Sumo wrestlers after a wet day as their wool or heavy cotton coats soaked up the water. All sorts of oiled and rubberised capes restricted action while leaking water through seams and the back of your neck.

I reckon the Vikings and Mongols got close with their fur and hide outfits but we probably would have run out of bears, reindeer and foxes to equip modern million man arnies.

Yachtsmen and mountain climbers were ahead of the game and I am sure if it was not for Mr Gore and his fellow synthetic pioneers around the world soldiers would still be miserable. Not just comfort but how many casualties from exposure/hypothermia could have been saved.

The stuff the boys have now more than likely in most armies is absolutely outstanding.

[Lang]

This video seems a really good overview of the use of the jerkin. I suppose I like it because he supports my opinion on the 37 pattern webbing - at least 2 of us think that way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wtG08g3yj8