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  #1  
Old 09-02-23, 05:33
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Kellett View Post
My original post has attracted no replies, which makes me think that it was highly unusual/unheard of to equip a carrier with a ______ .
Anthony: consider reposting on FB Universal/Bren Carrier group.

Lack of exposure, lack of interest in the value of engaging you by others may not necessarily support your thought of BESA on universal carriers being unheard of.
.
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  #2  
Old 09-02-23, 11:09
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
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Would that be the same vehicle or a different one? There is just about in the two photos that overlaps so you can say whether or not it is, and I’m not good enough at recognising strangers’ faces to decide if the same people are in the vehicle I think the standing guy wearing the pulled-back beret and overalls is the same in both, but I’m far from sure.
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  #3  
Old 09-02-23, 16:31
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke View Post
Would that be the same vehicle or a different one? There is just about in the two photos that overlaps so you can say whether or not it is, and I’m not good enough at recognising strangers’ faces to decide if the same people are in the vehicle I think the standing guy wearing the pulled-back beret and overalls is the same in both, but I’m far from sure.
Hi Jakko
there are similarities in the modified/updated vehicle model, as well as crew headdress. Have a look at the coveralls with and without hood and revisit the images? Regrets I have not identified the source or description.

I recall other images of BESA guns repurposed into universal carriers: New Zealand Māori troops comes to mind.

Updated 09 Feb 2023: Māori BESA January, 1943 & July, 1944.
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Last edited by Michael R.; 12-02-23 at 17:18.
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  #4  
Old 09-02-23, 19:25
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Michael, I believe the Maori Battalion Carrier picture shows a 50 cal. We had some 200+ Valentine tanks during WWII and they were fitted with Besa M.G.s.
Maybe you are referring to a different photo?
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  #5  
Old 09-02-23, 20:13
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Eades View Post
Michael, I believe the Maori Battalion Carrier picture shows a 50 cal. We had some 200+ Valentine tanks during WWII and they were fitted with Besa M.G.s.
Maybe you are referring to a different photo?
Hello Lynn,
yes, thanks. I know we discussed this previously: these fighters had been victims of fratricide, now shown with enhanced allied recognition symbol.

Imagine the signature the aircraft Browning could produce !
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  #6  
Old 10-02-23, 01:35
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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One of my favorite YouTubers is a PhD historian Mark Felton. I've mentioned him here before. Not long ago I rewatched a piece he did on the introduction of the Centurion in spring 1945. He pronounced BESA as Bay-za. The only other form I'd ever heard was Bee-za. Anyone know the correct way?
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  #7  
Old 10-02-23, 03:23
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Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
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I've only heard it as "Bee-Sah", but have noted that it seems to be written as BESA, not Besa, as if it is an acronym. However, like BREN, it has become a word of it's own. The name is derived from the initials of the Birmingham Small Arms factory, BSA, who licence built the Czech designed ZB53, so it is unlikely to be "Bay-Sa".
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  #8  
Old 10-02-23, 10:56
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Eades View Post
Michael, I believe the Maori Battalion Carrier picture shows a 50 cal.
Both of the Carriers in Michael’s photos have 7.92 mm Besas, by the looks of it, and the one pictures from the right front has (I think) a Vickers machine gun in the hull front instead of a Bren.
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  #9  
Old 10-02-23, 13:42
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Wartime, or any historical, pronunciation can be interesting and not always what it is today. When you listen to old films or news stories you often hear a weird way of saying something, but is this just the reporter taking on a reporter's persona? You have to admit there was a very peculiar way they spoke.

One case in point, our famous (and still surviving) Tribal class destroyer HMCS Haida is now pronounced 'Hi-duh' but apparently throughout her service she was pronounced 'Hey-duh'.
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  #10  
Old 10-02-23, 13:46
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
Wartime, or any historical, pronunciation can be interesting and not always what it is today. When you listen to old films or news stories you often hear a weird way of saying something, but is this just the reporter taking on a reporter's persona? You have to admit there was a very peculiar way they spoke.

One case in point, our famous (and still surviving) Tribal class destroyer HMCS Haida is now pronounced 'Hi-duh' but apparently throughout her service she was pronounced 'Hey-duh'.
I reckon Canadians would call it a Bee-za-eh?
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  #11  
Old 11-02-23, 10:59
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
Wartime, or any historical, pronunciation can be interesting and not always what it is today.
And that confuses a lot of people, when they don’t seem to realise pronunciation shifts over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
One case in point, our famous (and still surviving) Tribal class destroyer HMCS Haida is now pronounced 'Hi-duh' but apparently throughout her service she was pronounced 'Hey-duh'.
That one, technically speaking, is easy enough: /ˈhaɪdə/ — or, in non-IPA English phonetics: HI-duh, like the original pronunciation
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