Crusader wrecks in Maryland?

[ChaseR83]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Chase, get in touch with some of the guys on the AFV Association forum to try to get in touch with the guys who were there in person. Then use other open source intelligence like maps and satellite images. They are not a secret, so I think you should be able to narrow down the search area if not get an exact waypoint.

UXO is dangerous, but if you are aware of the dangers the risk is manageable. I would advise to bring along someone who is an expert and can point out the dangers while in the field.

Let us know how you fare!

Well, I've got a small update.

All I can say... research is never easy.

The AFV Association forum has been sitting on my new member registration for 2 weeks with no reply. Site traffic is very low over there and I'm not sure it is even really being monitored anymore.

I reached out to the gentleman who runs The Shaddock website, he didn't have any additional information but was able to the give me the email address of the original poster on the AFV forum. I emailed him... no reply.

Out of shear dumb luck I saw a post on Facebook that mentioned the tanks, I sent the poster a message and he was able to give me the exact location... circa 1973...

Problem is.... Ft. Meade in 1973 is far different than Ft. Meade from today. I haven't found a single vintage, freely available map that shows the target range areas... other than I know at least a portion of the old ranges are in the Northern Tract of the Reserve... still a large area to wander.

In 1973 you could just walk right up to them... I don't know if that is possible today. The NSA has a heavy presence at Ft. Meade and I've read several stories of portions of the Northern Tract being restricted... despite no longer being on the base. It would be shame to fly halfway across the country to be foiled by a fence topped with razor-wire...

I really need to find a local resident who is familiar with the area...

[David Dunlop]

Have you ever worked with the freeware computer program ‘Google Earth’? It came out in 2001 and is still available, but not very popular anymore as people use ‘Google Maps’ because it is much simpler.

Google Earth is based on satellite imagery and you can search freehand for a location, or type in several civil or military grid coordinates and the program with take you directly overhead of that spot on the planet and you can zoom down to take a closer look. As you navigate, the grid coordinates are displayed in real time and the date of the current imagery in use is also available. So, if you are looking down over the exact spot you have coordinates for and see nothing, check the image dates. If the image is newer than the date of the last known photos you have, the tanks are gone.

It will save you a lot of time and money worrying about them.


David

[David Herbert]

Re Google Earth, you can also see older satellite and also even older aerial photographs of many locations, often going back to WW2 if the location was of interest in the past.

David

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Have you ever worked with the freeware computer program ‘Google Earth’? It came out in 2001 and is still available, but not very popular anymore as people use ‘Google Maps’ because it is much simpler.

I use Google Earth Pro at work, and it has better resolution than consumer Google Earth.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

FWIW, when this thread began I decided to try looking at the area with Google Maps to see if I could find the wrecks. No luck, else I would have posted about it, but then, I didn’t spend overly much time on it. The main problem with it is too many green trees that obscure the wrecks from at least casual viewing. Maybe if you systematically go through at maximum zoom, you might find them, though?

[ChaseR83]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

FWIW, when this thread began I decided to try looking at the area with Google Maps to see if I could find the wrecks. No luck, else I would have posted about it, but then, I didn’t spend overly much time on it. The main problem with it is too many green trees that obscure the wrecks from at least casual viewing. Maybe if you systematically go through at maximum zoom, you might find them, though?

Yes Google Earth is one of the first places I looked... and like you said it's just acres of trees.

The person I spoke to that saw them in 1973 gave a couple of bits of info... the area was overgrown even in 1973... and they aren't far from a road... he and a friend actually spotted them while out riding. He just doesn't remember the name of the road.

He also said he asked various hunters in the area over the years, and they all say they are still there.

[Jordan Baker]

What’s the thought on this being two of the Crusaders?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

What’s the thought on this being two of the Crusaders?

Nice spotto, could very well be them. I'm sure Terry "I use Google Earth Pro at work" can do better, though

[ChaseR83]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

What’s the thought on this being two of the Crusaders?

That is certainly interesting....

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

FWIW, when this thread began I decided to try looking at the area with Google Maps to see if I could find the wrecks. No luck, else I would have posted about it, but then, I didn’t spend overly much time on it. The main problem with it is too many green trees that obscure the wrecks from at least casual viewing. Maybe if you systematically go through at maximum zoom, you might find them, though?

Most online map imagery has a slider bar on one corner to change between image dates. Try looking at another time of year.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Most online map imagery has a slider bar on one corner to change between image dates. Try looking at another time of year.

Unfortunately, there’s none that I can see in Google Maps:

Google Maps screenshot.jpg

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

Unfortunately, there’s none that I can see in Google Maps:

Attachment 135069

There is likely a year somewhere on the display. Peck that and the slider bar will come up. There are differences between the desktop and mobile versions. As the expression goes, your mileage may vary.

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by ChaseR83

I haven't found a single vintage, freely available map that shows the target range areas... other than I know at least a portion of the old ranges are in the Northern Tract of the Reserve... still a large area to wander..

Try here for ww2 maps of the area...

https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons..._31680_geo.jpg

Note the "AT Range" marked... I assume... Anti-Tank Range.

FortMeade-AntiTankRangeWW2.jpg

https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons..._31680_geo.jpg

https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Fort_George_G._Meade

There may well be others... if any help... no idea.

Probably more historical stuff will pop up if you search for "Fort Meade Military Reservation" rather than the Patuxent Reserve the area now appears to be known by.

Tim

[Tim Bell]

Merging the two maps together... I would suspect the vehicles likely be located inside the "Military Reservation" if not somewhere adjacent to the AT Range.

FortMeade-WW2-MilitaryReservationArea.jpg

Tim

[Tim Bell]

Assuming these were hard targets, maybe they are somewhere up to 1 mile south of the AT range firing point?

FortMead-ATRangeAreaWW2.jpg

Of course... they could be anywhere else, and were not there as targets.

Tim