Any ideas on this Achilles wireless setup

[David Dunlop]

Hello Jack.

I used to have an NOS Extension in my 19-Set stuff years ago but finally sold it off as I had absolutely no need for it. It was a specialized piece of kit is seems that had no place in the late war/post war Canadian Supply System for the 19-Set.

First time I have seen one in wartime use in your photos and at that, I am very suspicious it is mounted onto a steel tube adapter sitting between the rubber base of the extension and the hull of the M10. That adapter may be unique to the circumstances of installation on the M10 and perhaps, even a field mod to make everything work.

The extension consists of a molded rubber base cylinder with a circular flange at the base, held to the vehicle by a heavy duty steel ring using four bolts. the steel tube is vulcanized onto the top of the rubber cylinder via a small steel plate welded to the end of the steel tube. The ID if the tube is large enough to feed the B-Set Connector cable through it all the way to the top. The top which you have highlighted has a steel fitting welded to it. the lower portion is a small cup, large enough to hold the B-Set Cable Connector that clips onto the bottom fitting of the Aerial Base No. 9. The top part of this cup is identical in appearance to the tops of any of the steel post style mounts for the Aerial Base No. 9. That is, it has been machined to the correct OD and depth for the bottom of the Aerial Base No. 9 to sleeve down over it once the cable is in place and be fastened to the top of the extension with the four standard screws set at 90 degrees apart for this purpose. The shiny ring you see is the bottom of the Aerial Base No. 9 in place on top of this upper extension fitting.

The Insulator you posted a picture of looks like a main set aerial base for a wireless set that is not a 19-Set or 22-Set. Possibly a No. 9 or No. 11 Set...but do not quote me.

The photo you posted of the two aerial bases puzzles me. The forward mount assembly should be for the main set aerial for whatever wireless set was installed in the M10, but I have not seen anything quite like it before. Sorry.

Could this M10 have been set up as a Command Vehicle with two wireless sets on board?


David

[Johnny Canuck]

Hello Jack
First photo the arrow points to a common WS19 part, a No.9 aerial mount used with all G Rod applications clamps, extensions, mounts etc.. Attaches with 4 small screws through its metal base, centre is rubber and flexible, top is metal and threaded for the G Rod.

Second picture is same idea as the G Rod extension bottom rubber; but two or three times larger. Picture shows mount used with D Rods (7/8" various lengths., for WS9, 11, 12 ?? and command vehicles.

Third photograph is poor. Might just be something in front of the aerial base 9/10 with F Rods mounted, (static up to four 4' rods, mobile only 2 rods were used). I think you can just see the bottom angle of the No.8/10 base
Mount in window labelled WS19 is antenna for CDN WS58, post war adjustable adapter, aerial base No. 8 (spring clamp) and an antenna cable.

[Jack Geratic]

Thanks again Geoff and David.

Was looking over my folder of collected images, and it seems the aerial atop the extension located hull side was pretty much standard. Though did come across one photo that did not make use of the extension.

For the aerial on the front glacis, those with the thicker bottom stem seem to be present during first month or two of the Normandy campaign and only on the M10. The Achilles photos have on the front the simpler set A utilizing Base No8. They also seem to be located in one of two or possibly three locations on the glacis.

The colour photo below shows two pot locations but period photos only ever show one aerial ever being used on the front.
622a958e8955557c29f61161_1280px-M10_Achilles_facing_forward.jpg

As for the M10/Achilles being a command vehicle equipped with two radio sets, it is not mentioned in the War Establishments. There was instead Universal Carriers used by troop commanders. These would be replaced with tanks were made available as Observation Posts in the form of Valentine or Crusader AA.
http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...tillery.23770/

Anyhow lots to chew on, thanks guys. Now on to find better detail images and hope to find some dimensions.

[Jordan Baker]

Here is some more pictures from the internet.

[Jack Geratic]

Thank you Jordan for those posted images. These larger files clearly show the Achilles front aerial base in these instances are the no10 type.
no10.jpg


The example of the kinked forward extension on the hull side is interesting, could that of been purposely done by the crew? The bend is too low to have been hit by the rotating of turret/gun barrel. Unless that was weakest point even when the antenna rod was attached which would mean it was smacked from behind?

The close up image with the barrel in contact with the B-Set aerial may explain the added fitting near the top of the mast, specifically put there for when this type of situation occurred? It is that same detail that I had posted as a cropped image with the red arrow pointing to it. Of note too both TD types have images of them traveling with the gun rotated so it is pointed to the rear.

[Bruce MacMillan]

Originally Posted by Johnny Canuck

Mount in window labelled WS19 is antenna for CDN WS58, post war adjustable adapter, aerial base No. 8 (spring clamp) and an antenna cable.

I have one of those as well.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Bruce MacMillan

I have one of those as well.

It's a "Horrible Bodge"[TM] by the dealer!

The mounting is the steel/rubber turret roof version (No.1?) that is secured by Aerial Feeder No.4 or No.5 and the fine-threaded nut and tab washer.

The Aerial Base is the standard No.8.

The next piece is "Adapter, Aerial, No.1" ZA.27220 which _is_ wartime issue and killed off the phantom "Aerial Base No.19" that someone here discovered a teleprinter message from London admitting that only a single prototype had been made! (It carried on well into the modern era but has possibly been killed off by BOWMAN - they were certainly issued with Larkspur installation kits and the only difference is the earlier ones marked ZA.27220 and the later ones with larger numbers showing the last 7 digits of the NATO Stock Number.

The 'F' rod diameters didn't change, so it would fit anything up to Aerial Base No.31 Mk.7 and be useful for laying the aerial flat when required.

Best regards,
Chris.

[Jack Geratic]

Hi Chris, much thanks for your replies.

Indeed yes that image with wading trunks lying in the foreground was taken on June 6th 1944. The M10s are identified as belonging to 3rd Canadian Anti-Tank Regiment.

Talk about going full circle about the antenna setup on the front glacis. That would explain why I could not find a proper modern photo with a thicker base stem, and the only closest resemblance turns out to be a "Horrible Bodge".

[Jack Geratic]

Is this where the G rod length measurement would lie as represented with the green line? The forum has its diameter quoted as 1/4 inch so the thickness of that green line is also scaled to match the length. Visually it seems the rod in the photo would be near double diameter and it does appear much heavier than the aerial located on the hull front.

G rod dimensions.jpg

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

Is this where the G rod length measurement would lie as represented with the green line? The forum has its diameter quoted as 1/4 inch so the thickness of that green line is also scaled to match the length. Visually it seems the rod in the photo would be near double diameter and it does appear much heavier than the aerial located on the hull front.

Attachment 136990

Nope! The green line (10 inches visible) is part of the Achilles, and would be installed during construction ready for a wireless fit (likewise the shorter pillar on the front glacis plate for the 'A' set aerial). It will terminate in a circular flange with either four, five, or six holes depending on which "Aerial Base No.? Mounting No.?" is intended to go on top of it. In this case it's got Aerial Base No.9 Mounting No.3 fitted, which has a hollow rubber cylinder and loose clamping ring at the bottom, the central stalk is fitted to the top, and the top section is larger to match the Aerial Base No.9 (which fits over it and is secured by four screws) and Aerial Rod 'G' screws into the top of that.

The question is: can I put my hand on the one I've got at this time of night?

(Answer: No. Darn it all to Heck (in lieu of anything stronger - I must have moved it during the last sortout).

Back to the photograph... the tip of the red arrow is pointing at a white stripe; this is the nickel-plated inverted cup that is the start of Aerial Base No.9, and has a Pye connector in the centre with a pigtail lead that goes up to the (again nickel plated) top cap on the ribbed rubber insulator - the aerial rod screws into the centre of the top cap (2BA thread (I think)). The coaxial feeder (Leads, Aerial, No.2 ZA.3142 or No.3 ZA3143 from memory) is stuffed up from inside the hull, attached to the aerial base and the horseshoe shaped wire clip fastened, after which the clip is secured with some twisted copper wire and the base attached to the mounting with four screws. The aerial leads for the 'B' set are a tuned length and must not be shortened.

That mounting looks like the one I have (somewhere), and most of it is thin-wall duralumin tubing painted dark green (wrinkle finish) which makes me think it's USA manufactured.

The Australian version used a big steel coil spring instead of the rubber mounting at the base of the mount.

Hope this is some help, I'll continue looking for the mounting.

Chris. (G8KGS)

[Johnny Canuck]

"The 'F' rod diameters didn't change,"

Not.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...945%20Pg.4.jpg

ZA 0894 No.1 49.5" long 3/8-3/8 diameter both ends male/female
ZA 0895 No.2 49.5" long 3/8-1/4 diameter at ends male/female
ZA 0896 No.3 49.5" long 1/4-1/8 diameter at ends male/female

I've also seen a 'battle' aerial 4'+- 3/8(1/4??) male base 1" 1/2 long with balance 1/8 rod 3/16 ball on top.
There are probably other variations around.

Actually that is why a WS38 has 2 or 3 adjustable holes to insert aerial rods.

Geoff

[David Dunlop]

Jack, that American M10 aerial looks suspiciously like a High Frequency item from their extensive line of signals equipment. They did not make much use of the 19-Set, so an installation point for a B-Set aerial on their M10's would likely be irrelevant to the crew. The B-Set was for inter vehicular communication between tank crews at VERY close range. For a Commonwealth M10 crew, it would probably not take too long for them to realize with open turrets, it was likely far easier to yell or hand signal intensions to adjacent crews.

As for the turret traverse causing aerial damage from the gun barrel, that also may not have been a serious problem. the M10 turret, if I recall correctly, was manual traverse only with a 360 degree travel rate on the order of 80 to 90 seconds. Pretty slow.

I think the M10. both 3-inch and 17-pounder, also had longstanding issues with either gun being too heavy for the turret and several attempts at counterbalancing were made throughout the service life of the M10. If the vehicle was traversing a slope, there was serious risk the turret stops could fail and the weight of the barrel suddenly swing the turret to face the low side of the vehicle. Not good for crew moral.


David

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

the M10 turret, if I recall correctly, was manual traverse only

Correct, the traversing wheel almost directly operates on the rack mounted in the hull, around the turret opening — see the TM. No traverse rate seems to be indicated in the manual, though.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Johnny Canuck

"The 'F' rod diameters didn't change,"

Not.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...945%20Pg.4.jpg

ZA 0894 No.1 49.5" long 3/8-3/8 diameter both ends male/female
ZA 0895 No.2 49.5" long 3/8-1/4 diameter at ends male/female
ZA 0896 No.3 49.5" long 1/4-1/8 diameter at ends male/female

I've also seen a 'battle' aerial 4'+- 3/8(1/4??) male base 1" 1/2 long with balance 1/8 rod 3/16 ball on top.
There are probably other variations around.

Actually that is why a WS38 has 2 or 3 adjustable holes to insert aerial rods.

Geoff

That wasn't what I meant.

The original "Aerial Rods, 'F'" were 48 inches long and there were a set of three rods which could 'stack' into the then new Aerial Base No.8 for vehicle use. No.1 was the lowest, No.2 was the 'middle' and was swaged down to the same diameter at each end so that two could be used, and No.3 was the top and generally tapered to a point.

They allowed for a 16-ft aerial to be constructed (1 x No.1, 2 x No.2, 1 x No.3) for static use or as part of the 34-ft Steel Vertical Aerial, but tended to come apart when used on moving vehicles.

The Canadians solved that problem, extending the length by 1.5 inches and rolling a coarse thread into the extension. (So they were still compatible with the previous version but could be pushed together and then screwed home to prevent the shaking causing them to separate and be lost from moving vehicles. Aerial Base No.10 Mk.1 was developed to replace Base No.8, with a wing-nut operated clamp instead of the earlier spring wire clip. (This was later replaced by the No.10 Mk.2 with a terminal added to the clamp so that the aerial could be fed from the top _or_ underside, and wire aerials could be used (Aerial, 100-ft, No.5) that didn't need a plug to mimic an aerial rod.

Those rods became (and remained) the standard from WW2 up until the end of CLANSMAN and its replacement by the BOWMAN range of Combat Net Radio. The rod diameters remained the same even with the introduction of a standard 1 metre length (Metric!) with Clansman, and GRP aerial sections.

During WW2 the 'F' rods were also used with manpack sets, e.g. WS38 Mk.2 which had its own set of 4 rods: 1,2 & 3 for 4, 8, or 12-ft (only really used for static operation), and a "Battle Whip" referred to as '3B' by the Artillery consisting of a spring steel rod welded/brazed into a steel plug to make it compatible with the No.3 rod. (It was a _serious_ eye hazard, being small diameter and very rigid - I protect the end with a cork if I need to use one.)

There were other lengths of 'F' rods for various purposes, but 1, 2, 3 and 3B are the most common ones.

Loading the poor old infantry with a quiver of 4-ft aerials was decided to be a bad idea, so the WS38 Mk.3 was issued with Aerials 4-ft No.1 and No.2 - a pair of folding 'F' rod numbers 2 & 3 equivalents that were threaded on a wire and could be carried in the backpack (Satchel, Signals, No.10) with the set and ancillaries. The 12-ft option was discarded.

(The WS 62 got a folding 14-ft whip and the two 4-ft folding rods in Case, Aerial Rods, No.5, which could be fastened to the set for easy carriage.)

I think that's enough of my waffling for tonight. :-)>

Chris (G8KGS)

[Jack Geratic]

Gentlemen, thank you for the continued interest on the subject.

First time I have ever seen mention of a 'battle' aerial, intrigued.

Am not aware of Americans ever using British/Commonwealth radio systems and vise versa in their respective vehicles. If there was something in my postings that seemed to be contrary to this, my apologies.

For the gun weight issues, this was addressed on the M10 by adding a purpose made wedge shaped weight directly to the turret rear. The 17pdr had an additional weight problem as the breech was heavier than the barrel. This was solved by adding a counterweight at the front of the gun barrel. When in travel mode the gun was suppose to be secured in place via the gun lock/cradle located on the rear deck.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Hello Jack.

The Insulator you posted a picture of looks like a main set aerial base for a wireless set that is not a 19-Set or 22-Set. Possibly a No. 9 or No. 11 Set...but do not quote me.

David

Not quite: the big insulator was originally Aerial Base No.3 for wireless trucks using the No.2 or No.3 set and Aerial Rods 'D' - as part of the 34-ft mast. Later on they were used on wireless trucks with serious high power transmitters (WS 12, 12HP, 33, ET4336, etc.) and the rubber insulator was not up to the job, so it was bypassed electrically with the four copper braid straps, and sat on a large mushroom-shaped ceramic insulator (Insulator, W/T, 'H') so that it could be fed from underneath - the No.3 required a wire to the terminal on top of the insulator. The combination was redesignated Aerial Lead-in No.16.

Use with the whole 34-ft mast caused the rubber dome to collapse under the weight, so a "skeleton cone" support was made that was inverted over the rubber insulator and locked onto studs on the top plate, the rods were inserted and a screw clamped onto the bottom rod to take the load off the rubber. Static use only, of course - it was a rigid assembly.

The final version was Aerial Base No.20 which did away with all the Base No.3 bits and simply had a rigid socket bolted through Insulator W/T 'H'.

Best regards,
Chris (G8KGS)

[Jack Geratic]

My confusion on the photo study, so the G Rod is not even present in the image? I think too a bad choice in colour on my part as I have the bottom measurement as 10 inches labelled in blue. . .

Chris, hope you can find the physical example and share it here.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

My confusion on the photo study, so the G Rod is not even present in the image? I think too a bad choice in colour on my part as I have the bottom measurement as 10 inches labelled in blue. . .

Chris, hope you can find the physical example and share it here.

I've been thinking for some time that an "Aerial Base Disambiguation Guide" would be useful, with photographs and measurements, but was always too busy. (I have been collecting representative samples of stuff for a few (too many) years...)

Now I'm retired that maybe less of a problem.

I'll see what I can do.

Best regards,
Chris. (G8KGS)

[Maurice Donckers]

I have seen several with the 2 pots on the front like the color picture from the one in la Roche , could this have something to do with the afv 38 set ?

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

I have seen several with the 2 pots on the front like the color picture from the one in la Roche , could this have something to do with the afv 38 set ?

WS38 AFV did not get into service much before Feb 45.

Before that vehicles were fitted with the WS38 Mk2* manpack radio.

Tim

[Jack Geratic]

I downloaded a digital copy of this book and THE only mention of radio equipment is the A and B set for the No.19 wireless. Suppose there is a chance the info is wrong or incomplete.

Screenshot 2024-02-15 at 09-47-54 Tank Destroyer Achilles and M10 British Army Anti-Tank Units W.jpg