A Forgotten Chapter: Holland Under the Third Reich

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Norm Cromie
Hanno: When you deal in numbers like 60 million deaths that WW2 created how can you not believe that we are governed by a demension beyond our comprehension. We are like ants in a fast flowing river of evolution that has no beginning and no end. It is impossible to put a face on good and evil and the reason why. In my humble opinion we as individuals can't and never will be able to control the forces of the universe that dictate the strongest will prevail. This is the destiny that all matter in the Universe must accept.

Norm, you are absolutely right. In trying to comprehend some of this I try to view some aspects from "The Other Side's" viewpoint.

For example, I recently learned that one of the reasons so many Jews being deported from Holland was because the Netherlands had a state-of-the-art population register. This made it relatively easy to track down all Jews. The system was improved with much enthusiasm by the chief state inspector of municipal population registers, J.L. Lentz. He idesigned the standard ID card, again state-of-the-art, which was almost impossible to falsify.
Now, was this man a fanatical Nazi? Apparently not, even before the war he was adamant about introducing an ID card for all inhabitants. It seemed his ideas were adopted by the Germans, enabling them to single out most of the Jews form the rest of the population. Mr. Jentz' dedication to improve his population registration system could have led him to oversee the downside of it.
After WW2, mr. Lentz, who probably was the civil servant of greatest value to the Germans, was convicted to three years enprisonment.

H.

[Snowtractor]

Originally posted by FV623
not to forget either that "Holocaust" is not a new idea, we thought it up and started it off in medieval times.

I would think that the people of Carthage would agree with it not being a new thing. Rwanda , Aborigini's in Australia , Indians in the US , not to mention countless other industrial scale slaughters. Mao and Stalin, Romans, Greeks, yada yada yada. Quite the species when more than one of us get together.
Sean

ps: I should add that it will happen again unless abosolute diligence is applied . As for tracking persons down, there are several congressmen in the States that want microchips implanted under the skin in all US citizens. They would carry all their ID and medical etc needs right in their arm and be able to be read with a RF scanner....state of the art....scary.

Originally posted by Snowtractor
I would think that the people of Carthage would agree with it not being a new thing. Aborigini's in Australia , Indians in the US, not to mention countless other industrial scale slaughters. Mao and Stalin, Romans, Greeks, yada yada yada. Quite the species when more than one of us get together.

We're both tribal AND territorial creatures are we not?
Survival by extinguishing threats to the status quo?

I don't want perfection, just wanna be left alone to learn how to navigate in a world that seems full of those who would annihilate me because I'm perceived as a threat somehow, because I'm brown or yellow black or white or red ... or or or ... don't think "right/left/middle of the road" or because I or :drink: or or or ... I ain't white (and I'm not "white" I'm splendidly blended but missing a few races in my genes : ... maybe I'll pick em up next life? But then I may become a target for being a mongrel?)

It seems we're presented with choices ... which/who will we perceive and treat as an adversary to our own existances and ways of life and how far will we go to assure we're let be?

Survival ... as long as humans have been in existance, survival has ALWAYS been the issue and the driving force for aggression against others ... for physical life or lifestyle. None of us want to become extinct ...

K.

[Norm Cromie (RIP)]

Hanno, Snowtractor and Carman:
Please do not think I am immune to feelings regarding the disgusting behavior of all mankind to one another. As I can attest to during the war, seeing the terror and frightful faces of Italian families caught in the cross fire and young German teenage soldiers who raised their hands in surrender expecting to be shot for the dreadful behavior of their officers having killed two of our scout platoon without military reason, will remain with me as to why. When we look at our behavior in past history, we have not changed a particle of this atrocious behavior against our fellow men. We still live in a world that is beyond our understanding and comprehension and reinforces my belief that there are dimensions beyond our present day reasoning power of which we have no control. May I say that the mind provoking thoughts that the MLU members confront us with is maybe a small step that places us all on this planet in one simple family and that men like Geoff. who put so much effort into this sight must surely give some of us hope.

Originally posted by Norm Cromie
Hanno, Snowtractor and Carman:
Please do not think I am immune to feelings regarding the disgusting behavior of all mankind to one another.

Well Norm, you know by now that I know you better than that and would never think you are immune ... au contraire NEVER my friend, as I know you are very un-immune!

When we look at our behavior in past history, we have not changed a particle of this atrocious behavior against our fellow men. We still live in a world that is beyond our understanding and comprehension and reinforces my belief that there are dimensions beyond our present day reasoning power of which we have no control.

I often think that we're simply at the mercy of natural progression ... things begun must run their course in actions and one reaction after another. Snowballing comes to mind. I don't know how world peace can ever happen in a world full of contradictions of mindsets and lifestyles.

I think world peace can only happen "and in the beginning" ... from the beginning. It's like things have gone far-too-far to do anything but hang on for the ride we're all on ... and wait for a new start? Meanwhile, enjoy any harmony and compatibility as it comes and remember and preserve the history of how we got to where we're at.

May I say that the mind provoking thoughts that the MLU members confront us with is maybe a small step that places us all on this planet in one simple family and that men like Geoff. who put so much effort into this sight must surely give some of us hope.

Geoff ... yes ... gives hope. He's not afraid to stand alone in order to bring people and things together for us ...

Karmen

[Bill Murray]

The personal aspect, very personal.

I like to think of myself as a very compassionate human being.
I read these things we are discussing, I see them in pictures and on the tellie and I feel so, so terrible about them.

But, and this runs through my mind from time to time when I read a story in the newspaper or see on TV or the Internet about a murder committed with no reason, I ask myself, "what would I do?"

What would my immediate instinct be if someone murdered my wife or one of my children or grandchildren. And I mean here that there would be no question who did what to whom, it would be an open and shut case. The answer I come up with just about every time is, I will kill that sonofabitch myself. No trial, no appeals, no listening to testimony about the individuals difficult upbringing or that he/she were molested as a child or that they come from a disadvantaged sector of society. I will just kill the bastard.

And that is the saddest part for me. Several of you have pointed out this problem from a global society point of view, I am merely bringing it down to a very personal level. As compassionate as I consider myself to be, in the end I am probably no different than any other human being when someone takes away a part of my life. It may well be that I would not actually carry out the above thought but the mere fact that I think it shows me that I may not be much removed from the cavemen or the Carthaginians or the Nazis or the Rwandans.

As a thoughtful individual, I try to separate myself from those named above. In the case I cite, it would be "different". But when it comes time to pulling the trigger or swinging the sword or tossing the lance, is it really any different? Probably all of those who pulled/swung/tossed thought they were doing the right thing too.

Kind of hard being a human being isn't it. We have so many ways to kill each other and we get better at it all the time.

Well troopers, that was a bummer of a post wasn't it. I will leave this thread and go over and mess with Geoff a bit about his rib and his PC problems.
Bill

Hanno I have extracted the following from Dileas by Kim Beattie:

"Col. Counsell ordered Major.-Gen. Schungarth, the S.S. Commander,
to a conference, and a big job was laid on; a huge enclosed S.S. prison
had to be built, and there was no one to do it but the Highlanders
and the S.S. troops. The Colonel chose the area, ordered the Dutch
out of it, and then watched with grim pleasure while Hitler's Elite
Korps created their own concentration camp by encircling themselves
with barbwire.
The Colonel then decreed they must administer themselves, or not
be fed. S.S. Generals Schungarth and Mascus were not disarmed, at
first; neither were their staffs; they were told to control things, and
were allowed to keep their Lugers to shoot their men or themselves
if they wished (which some obligingly did).
Sentry boxes and outside guards were placed just in time; the
resentful Dutch took to lobbing grenades at Hitler's Elite, and they
also broke in to steal their rations.
Majors George Beal and Gord Proctor were in charge of searching
and disarming the Gestapo. It required days. A Brigade weapon
dump took form, which included everything from jewelled fist-daggers
to embossed Lugers and special Schmeissers with mother-of-pearl
butts. These were Hitler's gunmen, and each one had a concealed
weapon. When the S.S. men were moved out of their quarters aston-
ishing loot was revealed: imported food, cigarettes, furnishings,
women's clothing, bicycles, radios, horses, small cars, jewellery.
The greatest find of all was a large room packed solid with pre-
war Scotch whisky and choice liqueurs. Much loot was turned over
to the British Red Cross, and the liquor was sent to 1st Division H.Q.
disposal. ("Well . . . that is . . . the most of it.")
The two 48th majors were not trained in police frisking methods;
they discovered later they had missed a lot of the Nazi gunmen's
personal effects, including some human baggage. To miss things was
natural; after all they had thousands to search and incarcerate.
They were fascinated by the demeanor of their charges. At the
beginning, they had jeered back at the crowds, and had sung defiant
Nazi songs at night. One of them arrogantly expounded his idea of
the ideal army and the perfect war to Capt. Rex Johnstone, as one
fighting man to another: American pay; British food and equipment;
Russian guns; German troops, and Italians for the enemy.
The variety and number of problems facing Col. Counsell seemed
endless, and the entire Battalion exploded with laughter over the
most bizarre of his S.S. headaches. It was hesitatingly introduced by
Major George Beal, whose Support Company was just then on guard
over the compound.
"Er....... what do I do, Colonel, about... uh, ... . about 28 Dutch
prostitutes?" he finally blurted (with a slight blush, the Orderly Room
said).
"Don't know," disclaimed the Colonel hastily, "What do you usually
do with 28 prostitutes?"
"This is not funny," protested the Major.
"No, no, of course not," agreed the Colonel who was enjoying
himself. "It must be a serious thing to have 28 prostitutes. By the
way, where have you got 'em?"

"I haven't got them!" exploded the Major in red-faced indignation.
"They're in the S.S. compound. They've been there all along, and now
those damned Nazi murderers want me to get rid of them."
"In the compound?" echoed the astonished Colonel. It was his turn
to be indignant. "Amazing fellows," he muttered.
The sequel was more rigid regulations, closer inspections, the
elimination of privileges, and the Elite Korps was told they must
scrub their own floors. They lapsed into sulky surliness; they pouted-
but they scrubbed! (Prostitute Postscript: The problem of the 28
prostitutes was passed to Brigade, "for your consideration and disposal,
please.")"

Hey Art, who loves you baby?

Very interesting post you did... I have to read it again tomorrow though ... because tonight it sounds incredible

Nite for now... K.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Today, 60 years ago, Auschwitz was liberated by Soviet troops.

See http://www.auschwitz.nl/ for live broadcasts of reading all 102.000 names of Jews from Holland murdered during WW2.

It's still unbearable to think of the horrors of how these men, women, and children were tortured and treated in general ... 60 years ago ... is that all? Not so long ago at all ...

I'm remembering a goldsmith I lived with who trained me as a goldsmith (which I obviously can't do anymore due to the arthritis) He was a German-Jew ..... born in a concentration camp in Germany. I can't recall which one, if he ever told me this fact ... his dad survived the holocaust. His Mother didn't. I didn't pry.

to my friend, and all others who lost their loved ones... and all the lost souls.

Karmen

Schroeder marks anniversary of Auschwitz liberation; shame over Nazi horrors
10:43 AM EST Jan 27

Kurt Julius Goldstein, survivor of the Nazi concentration camp Auschwitz, wipes away tears Tuesday during his speech in front of a photo of the camp. (AP Photo/Markus Schreiber)

BERLIN (AP) - German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder expressed shame Tuesday over the horrors of the Nazi era, acknowledging that Adolf Hitler's regime enjoyed wide support among Germans and promising that his country will always try to keep alive the memory of the Holocaust.

Across Europe, commemorations ahead of the 60th anniversary of the Red Army's liberation of the Auschwitz death camp on Jan. 27, 1945, were tinged with the pain of memories - and concern that anti-Semitism lives on.

"I express my shame in the face of those who were murdered - and, above all, you who survived the hell of the concentration camps," a sombre Schroeder told an audience at a Berlin theatre that included survivors of the Auschwitz death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland.

"The overwhelming majority of Germans living today bears no guilt for the Holocaust, but they do bear a special responsibility."

Some 1.5 million prisoners - most of them Jews - perished in gas chambers or died of starvation and disease at Auschwitz. In all, six million Jews were killed in Nazi camps, along with several million others, including Soviet prisoners of war, Gypsies, homosexuals and political opponents of the Nazis.

Alluding to the fact that the Nazis were democratically elected, Schroeder said the genocide could not be reduced to "the old talk of 'the demon Hitler.' "

"The evil of Nazi ideology did not come from nowhere," Schroeder said. "The brutalization of thought and the loss of moral inhibitions had a history; above all, Nazi ideology was desired by people and man-made."

Leaders across Europe marked the anniversary with warnings that the battle against anti-Semitism continues. Inaugurating his country's new Holocaust memorial, French President Jacques Chirac called for stronger efforts to quell a rise in attacks on Jews in France.

"Anti-Semitism is not an opinion. It is a perversion - a perversion that kills," said Chirac, who bowed before a wall inscribed with the names of 76,000 Jews sent to Nazi death camps from France. Only 2,500 of the deportees survived.

Europe's top human rights body, the Council of Europe, flew its flags at half-mast in Strasbourg, France, and its parliamentary assembly held a minute of silence. Its secretary general, Terry Davis, urged citizens and governments to "live up to their responsibility" to ensure that genocide in Europe never happens again.

The chairman of the World Jewish Congress, Israel Singer, said Europe has much to do.

"Shamefully, the lessons borne from this continental introspection have been forgotten so quickly, one wonders if they were ever taught widely at all," Singer said at the commemoration in Berlin. "We experience insensitivity toward the Holocaust by Europe's younger generation."

He called for the establishment of a European commission to spread information about the Holocaust while survivors are still alive.

"Only those who experienced it can make it believable to others," said Noach Flug, an Auschwitz survivor and the president of the International Auschwitz Committee, which organized the Berlin memorial.

"We wanted to survive with the aim of telling and describing to the world the atrocities, the incomprehensible cruelty that we saw."

Schroeder pledged Germany will do its part to ensure the Holocaust was not forgotten.

"Remembering the era of National Socialism and its crimes is a moral obligation. We owe that not only to the victims, the survivors and the relatives, but to ourselves," he said. "It is true that the temptation to forget and suppress it is great, but we will not succumb to it."

He also said German leaders would protect the country's growing Jewish community "with the power of the state against the anti-Semitism of the incorrigible."

"That there is still anti-Semitism cannot be denied," he added. "Fighting it is the task of all society."

Another former Auschwitz prisoner, Kurt Julius Goldstein, recalled being forced onto a "death march" westward away from the advancing Soviet army, saying that fewer than 500 prisoners in the 3,000-strong column survived.

Auschwitz "is the biggest cemetery in the whole world," Goldstein said. "None of them has a memorial stone - the Nazis wanted them to be forgotten. We have a duty to prevent that."

© The Canadian Press, 2005

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Interesting site: A Forgotten Chapter: Holland Under the Third Reich.

Have not read it all yet but here´s what must be an eyeopener for many of you: 75% of all Jews in Holland perished (...) the highest percentage of Jews to die in any Nazi occupied country with the exception of Poland.



H.

Hi Hanno,

As a Dutchman you are lucky man because you are not attacked (if I am wrong correct me please) by various crazy quasi-historians who state that these Jews were exterminated by the Dutch hands. Look at various Western newspapers, not to mention the New York Times, that write about the "Polish Concentration Camps" and about taken from the air "Polish anti-semitism". I do not remember single burned Synagogue in Poland last half a century but it would be hard to count set on fire Synagogues in one of the Western European country last decade.

Best

C.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Crewman
"Polish anti-semitism"

Indeed Poland seems to have this stigma.

In Holland we are now battling common belief in the American press about our euthenasia laws - they say they are so loose we kill all our babies who are born with one finger less or one leg shorter than the other.

H.

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Indeed Poland seems to have this stigma.

Hi Hanno one more time today

In the field of "Polish anti-semitism" I have good story.

Some time ago one of the historians wrote fantastic bullshit that according to the British Labour Party sabotage against the UK-based Canadian 1st Army (pre-Normandy period) some 200 Jewish quartermasters deserted of the Polish 1st Armoured Division, an element of the Canadian II Corps as we know. According to the historian this desertion was organized by the Labour Party to disorganize both Polish Division and Canadian Army and to delay their entering Normandy battlefield.

I interviewed then German born Jew who served in this division. He is my favourite veteran of this unit, very wise and open-minded man who helps me very much in my publicistic work. I asked very simply: "What?", "How?", "Where?", "Why?" and of course "Maybe under pressure of Polish anti-semitism?"…

The veteran mentioned is 2nd Lt. Willie Glaser who lives today in Canada and I quoted him in one of the MLU Forum thread earlier. Let's look:

Originally written by 2nd Lt.Willie Glaser for Crewman's article only

I will state now very direct, I have never experienced any anti-semitism in any unit of the Polish army I served since 1941. […] The very fact, that I was accepted as a radio operator/gun loader when my Polish was not the best speaks for itself. Can you imagine a tank crew going into battle against German panzers with one or more members of the crew being ant-semitic against a Jewish crew member? You may compare a tank crew to a submarine crew, which were specially screened for harmonious living.

I had two friends, who like me were born in Germany of Polish parents, they came to England before the war and joined the Polish army, one was killed in action in France, the other friend came like me to Canada, he died several years ago, both my comrades were with the 24th Lancer Regiment, a tank regiment, as tank crew. Because all three of us came from Germany we met often, we had a lot in common, mostly about family left behind in Germany. Sometimes the question of anti-semitism came up, never, never did I hear a complaint about this subject from my friends.

There were six Jewish soldiers in the 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment, four were tank crew, (one died in action) the other three were drivers and other duties. I never heard a complaint about anti-semitism from them. So much as seen from a regimental level.

200 Jewish soldiers deserting from the Army?: There is something very wrong with this statement. I am not an expert how many soldiers make up a divisional quartermaster section, but for sure 200 is a an outrageous number […].

There were two Jewish army chaplains serving in the Polish army, Major Melcer, was the senior chaplain for all the Polish army in England, Captain Dr. Heszel Klepfisz was the Jewish chaplain with the 1st Polish Armoured Division. I met Captain Klepfisz a few times in France and Holland with other Jewish soldiers, the subject of a desertion with such great numbers of Jewish soldiers never came
up.

It is absolutely ridiculous to think that supposedly 200 Jewish soldiers of the quartermaster section messed up the invasion plans of an armoured division, let us remember the Polish 1st Armoured Division was an integral part of the 1st Canadian Army! I do not believe that 200 Jewish soldiers were concentrated in a comparetively small unit. […] I do remember all preperations for embarkation and landing in Normandy with the 10th Mounted Rifles Regiment were on time, I did not notice any delays. My final word, it is all a big hoax.

A view to the "Polish anti-semitism".


Best regards

C.