Motorcycle Photos

Jordan Baker · #1 27-06-05, 05:08

Hi everyone

As promised to Charlie Fitton here are some photos that are in my collection of Canadian troops on Motorcycles in England. Unfourtunatley I have no idea who most of these men are or to what untis they belong to.

Any help in identifying the motorcycles is much appreciated.

The name for the soldier in this photo is believed to Harold Harris and that the photo was taken at an unkown location in June or July of 1946.

Jordan Baker · #2 27-06-05, 05:09

Here is the next one

Jordan Baker · #3 27-06-05, 05:10

Here is my third photo

Jordan Baker · #4 27-06-05, 05:22

This photo and the next one were passed on to me via a former middle school teacher of mine.

His name is Wilbert Hobbs. He was with 2nd Inf. Div. Ordnance Field Park, RCOC. He was killed June 30, 1945. Unfourtunatly I don't have anymore info on him.

Jordan Baker · #5 27-06-05, 05:26

This is my last motorcycle photo that I have in my collection. It was also passed on to me by the same former teacher.

Hi name is George Carter. I do know that he survived the war but I am unsure if he is still alive. I also don't know what unit he was with but it may have been the same as Wilbert Hobbs.

Jordan Baker · #6 27-06-05, 06:16

I just found one more in my collection.

The handwritten description on the back reads as follows.

"These are three black and white painted motorcylces used for escort jobs, such people as Crerar, Bernhardt, Montgoemary, ect. Commonly called "white mice". Taken at S.S. Bks, Apeldooren, 1945."

Lynn Eades · #7 27-06-05, 13:19

Nice pictures Jordan, The first one has to be a 741b Indian, does it not? The rest I dont know. The gun tractors in the first photo look great dont they.

servicepub (RIP) · #8 27-06-05, 15:26

I am looking for someone to write 6,000 words on the WWII Matchless, Indian, Norton and Harley-Davidsn motorcycles in Canadian service. Any takers?
I have over 100 photos of Canadian military motorcycles but need a 'subject expert'. See proposed cover.

Part of the Weapons of War series

Snowtractor · #9 27-06-05, 18:08

I notice the 15cwt in the first picture has a camo paint job and the pic year is 1946. It looks like that elongated mickey mouse pattern that was discussed a few days ago.
Sean

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #10 27-06-05, 18:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowtractor
I notice the 15cwt in the first picture has a camo paint job and the pic year is 1946. It looks like that elongated mickey mouse pattern that was discussed a few days ago.
Sean

Not only that, but all those 11 and 12 cabs in '46? I'd have guessed '42 or so, but I don't know enough of military motorbikes to date the pic by the bike. Anyone? Certainly an interesting set of photos.

Snowtractor · #11 27-06-05, 18:48

Is a Harley ,SOLO,HEAVY , likely WLC ,notice the horn under the headlight and the front end springs sticking above and behind the headlight .
2nd and third picture are Indians , 4th is Harley again.
The fifth I am not sure either Norton or Royal Enfield and the 6th or white ones are Harley's again.
Sean

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #12 27-06-05, 19:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowtractor
Is a Harley ,SOLO,HEAVY , likely WLC ,notice the horn under the headlight and the front end springs sticking above and behind the headlight .
2nd and third picture are Indians , 4th is Harley again.
The fifth I am not sure either Norton or Royal Enfield and the 6th or white ones are Harley's again.
Sean

Cool... a friend of mine's father spent the entire war as an ambulance (ECNALUBMA) driver, scraping the remains of motorcyclists off the 1000-year old stone walls of English country lanes. He was always a bit strange, especially when he got into the scotch. But I digress... back to my original question... what part of 'what year' did you not understand? Jeez, you're not going to be normal until the hummingbird-sized skeety-bugs of Winterpeg start eating you alive again...

Snowtractor · #13 27-06-05, 19:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Cool... a friend of mine's father spent the entire war as an ambulance (ECNALUBMA) driver, scraping the remains of motorcyclists off the 1000-year old stone walls of English country lanes. He was always a bit strange, especially when he got into the scotch. But I digress... back to my original question... what part of 'what year' did you not understand? Jeez, you're not going to be normal until the hummingbird-sized skeety-bugs of Winterpeg start eating you alive again...

They are all pre 46 models so it is impossible to Tell. The Harley model was made from about 1940-50 and the Indian looks like a 42 according to my books. I'll have to look around to find out exactly how long the WLC was in production , the WLA was essentially from 37 to 50 and was a bit different. Being "IN England" may help.
Sean

#14 27-06-05, 21:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowtractor
The fifth I am not sure either Norton or Royal Enfield. . . . . .

Matchless G3L (L ~ Lightweight): it differs from the G3 by having "teledraulic" telescopic forks, whereas the rest are girder types, and improved ground clearance.

Whilst the tank badge is missing or air-brushed out by the censor, there is a very obvious winged M Matchless logo cast in the magneto drive cover, a dead give-away.

One of the not too common OHV WWII mil m/c's and for its day fairly potent for a 350cc engine giving 16BHP, although the substantial ding in the subject's exhaust pipe may well serve to limit the top-end power somewhat.

We would hope to post some pictures of a restored one soon(ish) since Mr.Ballard snr (of the F15 Polsten) has one in build at present not 400yds from me and Ballard restorations tend to be on the good side of excellent.

Perhaps I should also post some images of a certain CDSW too in an appropriate place as Mr.Ballard jnr has almost a rolling chassis now. . . . . . . . . . .

R.

Richard Farrant · #15 27-06-05, 21:44

Jordan,

The second and third pics with two machines in each, are actually the Norton 16H 500cc.

My own favourite is the BSA WM20, one of which I rode for many years to rallies.

Richard

Lynn Eades · #16 27-06-05, 22:33

On taking another look 1st pic is not a 741b Indian, forks are wrong.(actually forks are right,I was wrong)

Keith Webb · #17 27-06-05, 22:41

As to the real feature of the first shot (the one with the 'Hardly Rideable' in the way) the first truck is either a F15A or F30, cab 12, the next are all CGTs with the first one as Jif has mentioned, a cab 11 and the others 12s.
Interesting to note the 11 cab has what looks like the running in sticker still on the windscreen.
Thanks for the pic, Jordan

Phil Waterman · #18 27-06-05, 23:12

Great photos thanks for posting them for us to see.

I was at a vehicle display few weeks ago part of a 60th anniversary of D-Day Landings one of the conversations that I heard was between veterans of D-Day and people of my generation (baby-boomers) talking about how snap shots of veterans are being lost as the veterans pass away and people don’t realize the historical importance of the photos.
Keep up the good work of preserving these photos by sharing

David_Hayward (RIP) · #19 27-06-05, 23:49

Quote:

Matchless G3L (L ~ Lightweight): it differs from the G3 by having "teledraulic" telescopic forks, whereas the rest are girder types, and improved ground clearance.

And the 1953?? on version was the G3Ls, with 's' for 'swinging arm'...I nearly bought one in 1974 but it had bent forks!

Please can we have more of these lovely photos saved for posterity, especially of CMPs? I crings that so many are going to be lost forever.

Snowtractor · #20 28-06-05, 06:35

I have to agree, I jumped the gun a bit and missed a couple of clues. I was looking for a knee pad on the side of the 16H tank which is a quick giveaway. On closer inspection it does appear to be there behind the sign. Also the one I am comparing it too has a more elaborate rear rack and side bag carrier where your pics look more like the Indian rack from here anyway. It is surprising how close the springer front ends of the time looked, even handle bar shape is very close.
As for the Matchless, I was wondering what the insignia was on the side. Is it a late war model having the hydraulic telescopic front end , Richard?
Sean

Richard Farrant · #21 28-06-05, 21:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowtractor
Also the one I am comparing it too has a more elaborate rear rack and side bag carrier where your pics look more like the Indian rack from here anyway.

As for the Matchless, I was wondering what the insignia was on the side. Is it a late war model having the hydraulic telescopic front end , Richard?

Sean,

Regarding British machines, Norton, BSA, etc......the pannier frames (side bag carrier) were not fitted at the start of the war, my guess aroung 41 or 42, without looking up.

The Matchless G3/L which has Teledraulic forks, came into service from late'41, prior to that the G3 was used, this had girder forks and a slightly more spritely engine as it was based on the prewar civilian Clubman model. The G3/L was detuned a little.

What insignia do you mean, I cannot see any on the Matchless. That on the Nortons is a square with the WD census number painted on it.

Richard

servicepub (RIP) · #22 28-06-05, 23:56

Here is an image of the Matchless symbol on the gas tank.

PS. Still looking for someone to write the thumbnail history of WWII motorcycles in Canada

Snowtractor · #23 29-06-05, 04:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Sean,

What insignia do you mean, I cannot see any on the Matchless. Richard

The winged M Matchless logo cast in the magneto drive cover,by the riders ankle is what I meant by insignia. I can't quite make it out on this computer, I can just see it is something. Funny, in my few books on motorcycles going back to the 1800's they don't mention Matchless, though I was aware of the brand. When did the company quit production?

Sean

Pete Ashby · #24 29-06-05, 09:52

Taking the following points into consideration:

All 11 and 12 cab trucks

The style of the camouflage is disruptive on the FGT's and 11 cab closest to the camera

Blackout masks on the head lights

Note the style on the 30/60 cwt LAA ? at the end of the row, it is the 42 pattern that evolved into the well known 'Mickey Mouse'

None of the trucks look particularly 'worn'

I would hazard a guess at late summer 1942

Pete

Richard Farrant · #25 29-06-05, 21:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowtractor
Funny, in my few books on motorcycles going back to the 1800's they don't mention Matchless, though I was aware of the brand. When did the company quit production?

Sean,

Sorry, thought you meant painted insignia, and I could not see any.

Matchless go back to the pioneer days of motorcycling. They became amalgamated with AJS and shared models, an early case of "badge engineering". Later on they joined with Norton and I think the last Matchless was made around 1970ish.

Richard

Keith Webb · #26 29-06-05, 22:20

By the look of things, all these CMPs appear to have running in stickers so the possibility exists they are brand new which would probably date it to 41 or early 42

Pete Ashby · #27 29-06-05, 23:02

I'm with you Keith, I think 42 is more likely, one further observation, the time of day I would suggest was very close to noon note all shadows are under the vehicles

Pete

William Spence (RIP) · #28 29-06-05, 23:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Jordan Baker
Hi everyone

As promised to Charlie Fitton here are some photos that are in my collection of Canadian troops on Motorcycles in England. Unfourtunatley I have no idea who most of these men are or to what untis they belong to.

Any help in identifying the motorcycles is much appreciated.

The name for the soldier in this photo is believed to Harold Harris and that the photo was taken at an unkown location in June or July of 1946.

Jordan: The bike in photo no. 1 is a 1942 Harley WLC. The tip-off is the tool box on the front fender & the round air cleaner. The high headlight got broken every time the bike was dropped or rolled, so the front fender tool box was eliminated & the headlight was switched with the horn to protect it from being broken. Also, the oil bath air cleaner was changed to the square one used on WLAs at the same time and that configuration became the 1943 WLC. The 1943 WLC also had the fender lights switched to the pencil type used on CMP vehicles. The rider is wearing a Wedge Cap which was worn very early in the war & was superceded with the Beret well before the D Day landings in 1944, so the picture must have been taken long before 1946.

Cheers, Bill Spence MacDuff Piper

David_Hayward (RIP) · #29 29-06-05, 23:25

I wondered if the 'running in' stickers indicated rebuilds/repairs by one of the large number of repair depots such as GM Limited near Preston or Cleckheaton?

Pete Ashby · #30 30-06-05, 21:28

I think the trucks look new issue David

If I were to guess I would say it was somewhere in the south of England 1st Div were in the Arundel area and a lot of units went through Headley and Bordon between 1941 and 1942.

There are two options for the photo, one is a field park and the guy in the photo has just picked up a new bike. In which case he and it are not related to the trucks, or ..........

They are all part of the same unit in which case it is a Canadian Field Artillery unit, my knowledge of brigading is not that hot so I would question why 25 lbs tractor units are alongside LAA tractors.

I would therefore go with my first assumption and say that it is a replacement depot Field Park around the late summer of 1942. Given that we should be able to narrow down the location between us all.

I can't decide what the Div or Corp plate is on the nearest truck

Pete