Rams outside 1st Armoured Carrier Regiment

[Bill Miller]

Just reading a note in Paul Roberts' book "The Ram: Devlopments and Variants, Vol.1" and I am a bit puzzled about something....

Ram production stopped in the summer of 1943 and Canada went on to build the M4 Grizzlies. However, 28 of the late production Rams built in Canada were supposedly pupose built "turretless" ammunition carriers. "CT 231070-CT 231097".

No photographs seem available, but this alternate, yet very similar use of the RAM predates the "kangaroo" by a full year. (As discussed earlier in this thread, many more conversions to ammo carriers were carried out in Europe in 1944-45.)

Were these 28 Rams truly built "turretless"??? Is there any contemporary (1943) Canadian Army documentation as to the use of Rams for alternate purposes, as by the fall of 1943 it was final that they were to be replaced in all theatres by U.S. Shermans?

I am also puzzled by a footnote in Donald Graves' book, "South Alberta's: A Regiment at War", Chapter 7, Note 4:

"In the spring of 1944 the CAC Operational Training Squadron at Woking experimented with using Ram tanks, with their turrets removed, as APCs. These evolved into the Kangaroo APC." Interview with Danny McLeod, 1996.

??? Spring of 1944, Rams!!!! This predates Simonds, "Totalize" and the M7 Priest APCs? Any idea if there is a way to prove or disprove this? If that is true, it certainly changes the origin story of the "Kangaroo".

Bill..:

[wim sikkelbein]

in the canadian archives there is a picture of a fort garry horse ram ambulance, would/could this be a ram wallaby converted to the ambulance role? What would it take to convert a ram kangaroo/wallaby to an ambulance version?

Crew of a turretless Ram tank used by The Fort Garry Horse as a "flat-top" armoured ambulance, Holten, Netherlands, 8 April 1945
PA-133165

wim

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by wim sikkelbein

in the canadian archives there is a picture of a fort garry horse ram ambulance, would/could this be a ram wallaby converted to the ambulance role? What would it take to convert a ram kangaroo/wallaby to an ambulance version?

Crew of a turretless Ram tank used by The Fort Garry Horse as a "flat-top" armoured ambulance, Holten, Netherlands, 8 April 1945
PA-133165

Hi Wim, this picture was featured in the thread Kangaroo Photos wanted. To my knowledge, there is no information available re. the ambulance versions of the Ram. I guess these were field conversions of whatever turretless Ram was available.

Regards,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bill Miller

Just reading a note in Paul Roberts' book "The Ram: Devlopments and Variants, Vol.1" and I am a bit puzzled about something....

Ram production stopped in the summer of 1943 and Canada went on to build the M4 Grizzlies. However, 28 of the late production Rams built in Canada were supposedly pupose built "turretless" ammunition carriers. "CT 231070-CT 231097".

No photographs seem available, but this alternate, yet very similar use of the RAM predates the "kangaroo" by a full year. (As discussed earlier in this thread, many more conversions to ammo carriers were carried out in Europe in 1944-45.)

Were these 28 Rams truly built "turretless"??? Is there any contemporary (1943) Canadian Army documentation as to the use of Rams for alternate purposes, as by the fall of 1943 it was final that they were to be replaced in all theatres by U.S. Shermans?

Bill, fascinating stuff! When I first read this note, I did not know what to think of it.

But we first need to ascertain if those 28 Rams were actually built turretless, in other words, while being on the assembly line at Montreal Locomotive Works. Another possibility is 28 of the late production Ram tanks were taken from stock later to be converted. This could mean the actual conversion was carried out (much) later than in September 1943.

Also, the fact that they have much higher WD numbers (CT 231070 to CT 231097) than the last Ram OP/Commands built (CT-205122 to CT-205181), does suggest new them being built - or at least contracted - somewhere between the third and forth batch of Sextons (CS204782 to CS204821 and S233626 to S233925 respectively). Now, would they be newly built, from left-over hull castings, or converted from unused stock?

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bill Miller

I am also puzzled by a footnote in Donald Graves' book, "South Alberta's: A Regiment at War", Chapter 7, Note 4:

"In the spring of 1944 the CAC Operational Training Squadron at Woking experimented with using Ram tanks, with their turrets removed, as APCs. These evolved into the Kangaroo APC." Interview with Danny McLeod, 1996.

??? Spring of 1944, Rams!!!! This predates Simonds, "Totalize" and the M7 Priest APCs? Any idea if there is a way to prove or disprove this? If that is true, it certainly changes the origin story of the "Kangaroo".

Another thing which we need to find out is why these Rams in Woking had their turret removed. I strongly suspect (or: it is one of the options) they were converted for driver training. The same was done with a number of Grizzlies, either during or after WW2.

I can see turretless Rams for driver training being eyed by an infantry officer, who later experimented with them as APCs.

You are right of course, if this is true, the Totalize innovation could be a copy of something experimented earlier. It would make a lot of sense, would it not?

Hanno

[servicepub (RIP)]

"In the spring of 1944 the CAC Operational Training Squadron at Woking experimented with using Ram tanks, with their turrets removed, as APCs. These evolved into the Kangaroo APC." Interview with Danny McLeod, 1996.

God bless our veterans but I am hesitant to re-write the documented history based on an interview 50+ years after the fact.

[Bill Miller]

I think the turretless Rams at Woking might be a case of Driver training vehicles (Though I know my Dad trained with fully turreted ones, as well as the many documentary photos I have support complete tanks too). During my interview with Lt. John Campbell (A Squadron, 1CACR) he says he saw and was around many turretless Rams while training in England? ANother likely possibility is the fact that the Ram Gun Towers were built, trialed and delivered to the 6th Anti-Tank Regt. in May of '44 (IIRC). So those tanks may be the explanation for what MAY have been seen at Woking??

By Totalize the idea of using turretless Rams as Personnel and Ammunition carriers was already in the works, the earliest document I have for purposeful Ram conversions is July 31, 1944. The week before Totalize. Keep in mind the 6th A/T Rams were riding right along with the M7 Priest conversions in Totalize. General O'Connor also claims to have had the idea for APC's in July of '44 for Op. Goodwood but was shot down by Dempsey?? The idea wasn't really too new, it was more of a case that Simonds had the temerity to put the idea into practice. Through serendipity the M7 Priests were available. Stacey, in "The Victory Campaign" says that Simonds was using towed tank or UC hulls in Italy for transporting troops?

In any case, Simonds should get the credit for applying the theory and deploying the improvised Carriers (and the other armour) in a manner that they were tactically successful. Had the Germans been able to use artillery and anti-tank weapons against the "kangaroos" it could have been an absolute massacre and the idea of suing the APC's in an combat role may have been scrapped.

I still don't know what to make of Paul Robert's claim in his book. I have never found any paperwork to support those extra 28 turretless Rams?? I don't think that they were purpose built/converted in Canada, but if there is evidence contrary to that I would love to see it!

Bill.