You know you want one! M113A1 for sale

[Tony Smith]

Just passing this on:

Gents,
I received a phone call from James Swan last night to advise that he was successful in his tender bid for the New Zealand M113 feet of 62 vehicles.The majority have the T50 Turret and are in running condition. He also has 4 x Fitters Carriers, 3 x M577 Command Carriers 1 x Mortar Carrier and 5 x M548 Supply Carriers.

Some of the Carriers have seen operational service in East Timor and Bosnia - all are painted in the NZ camouflage scheme.

All vehicles are currently located in Hamilton NZ. James is asking AUD $40,000 for the standard M113A1 with the T50 turret.

James Swan can be contacted on his email at:

shejam@hotkey.net.au

I have asked for some photos of the fleet, which I will pass on when supplied.

[Tony Smith]

The carriers are painted in the NZ MERDC scheme (Middle East Red Desert Camoflage). $40,000 does seem a fair price!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
The carriers are painted in the NZ MERDC scheme (Middle East Red Desert Camoflage). $40,000 does seem a fair price!

hi Tony,

That price converted to Sterling is quite high, you can get the equivalent FV432 for half that in UK. It will be interesting to see if any come over and what the asking price is, once shipping has been taken in to account.

Richard

[alleramilitaria]

us in the US would love to have one, but they cant be brought back to the US

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, Iwent with a friend prior to tendering, to check them out. My opinion was that they were in a pretty bad state, although the spares would have made the deal much more attractive.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Tony Smith


I have asked for some photos of the fleet, which I will pass on when supplied.

Those contemplating purchasing an M113, at least for combat purposes might want to reconsider after viewing my pics. The Golan Heights in Israeli occupied Syria is littered with the remains of AFV's from the Yom Kippur war. Just as the Brits found out in the Falklands, aluminum doesn't resist the effects of blast very well, and burns quite nicely once it gets going!
Here's a photo of an Israeli M113, or I should say, what remains of one! If you look closely you will see embedded in the aluminum:

Prisms from a pair of binoculars
Snaps from an Israeli uniform
A fork stamped in Hebrew
Several 7.62 mm bullets
Several burst 7.62 X 51 mm cases
Links from an FN M.A.G.

Very little remained of the M113. The hull melted and collapsed onto itself, with the fire burning right through the floor of the vehicle. A large Cedar tree has grown up in the ensuing years right through the middle of whats left of the M113! I searched the immediate area around the APC and found a fire scorched Israeli telephone token on the ground. There was one call home never made.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by sapper740
Those contemplating purchasing an M113, at least for combat purposes might want to reconsider after viewing my pic

[Brent Delaney]

Hi Tony,

The M 113'S are still located at Trentham, Wellington as of Friday 11th November.

I understand the US state department has not yet issued end user certificates as they are busy, I also understand that end user certificates will be required from the us government for on going sales of these.

These vehicles are in average to tired condition, never the less would make for a nice addition to any collection.

Cheers,

Brent Delaney.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Brent Delaney
Hi Tony,
I understand the US state department has not yet issued end user certificates as they are busy, I also understand that end user certificates will be required from the US government for on going sales of these.
Cheers,

Brent Delaney.

So a shady past, or associating with the wrong people would make you ineligible to buy one? Maybe I shouldn't have told MLU members!

[Lynn Eades]

Only about 20 are runners, some are lacking tracks, some have no bogie wheels or track, some are lacking engines,or major drive line components some are holding a lot of water, and some have been parked there for 5 years. Still would have liked one though(at a less than rediculous price) The ex Bosnian ones are still painted white.

[Tony Smith]

The lastest (rumour) info is that the US State Department has vetoed the sale of these M113s and they are now to be scrapped! Brent, Lynn- any confirmation of this?
I know of a possible buyer in Aus who will not only be disappointed, but regretting having to sell a few "Things" at fire sale prices to finance his purchase.
Or is the scrap story being confused with the disposal of the Land Rover fleet?

[KiwiKev]

Guys,
This was from the Local Rag.

US blocks sale of Army's old personnel carriers
20.02.06
Sixty decommissioned Army vehicles will probably be turned into scrap metal after the United States vetoed a $1 million sale to an Australian dealer.

New Zealand bought the M113 armoured personnel carriers from the United States about 40 years ago, on the condition that the State Department approved any future sale of the vehicles.

A private Australian dealer won the tender, but the sale was vetoed under new security measures in the United States. Australian dealer James Swan, who won the contract, said the US should compensate New Zealand.

It was understood that Mr Swan was going to pay just over $1 million.

New Zealand Minister Ron Mark said the vehicles could have been "combat effective" in Iraq today if the Government had spent about $215 million to upgrade them.

But James Funnell, spokesman for Defence Minister Mr Goff, said that the vehicles were "dinosaurs" and unsuitable for modern Army use.

The Government would be looking at other options for the fleet, but considering the United States position, turning them into scrap metal seemed likely.

Mr Funnell said the decision by the Americans came as no surprise, but the Government was optimistic the sale would have been approved.

"We were hopeful that they would recognise that our M113s are 50 years old and are basically dinosaurs, but unfortunately a far more modern variant - goodness knows how many generations newer than our ones - are still used by the Americans, therefore they classify it as of being strategic importance."

- NZPA

[alleramilitaria]

some years ago the DOE department of energy had some m-114 hulls it tried to give back to the army. the army didnt want them and told them to be scrapped. the DOE sold them to collectors, congres went nuts (the DEMS) after some in calafornia "leaked" the fact that the US government was giving fully functioning main battle tanks to civilians. so now the government is hyper sencitive about all this. now thats my tax dollars at work.

[Lynn Eades]

The latest issue of the N.Z.M.V.C.C, makes mention of investigating the possibility of taking out a court injunction to prevent the destruction of the m113s and to consider the possibility of local collectors buying some of them. I hope it all happens.

[Brent Delaney]

Hello Board,

There is more to this than has been published!
Well no surprises so far, considering the fact that certian people that were involved in the tender process now have sour grapes!
If they had been patient and keeped there cool and had not gone to the media maybe the outcome would have been different,
now scrapping the bulk of these is probably the only way that the NZ government can scrape egg off its face.

There are a lot of people behind the scenes that are still trying too prevent the scraping of these, unfortantly all may be lost, now that this has turned political.

There would have been more than enough for collectors in this country to aquire one! After all these were never going to leave our shores intact.

On the good side at least they had the sense to preserve some for prosperity.

Thanks,

Brent Delaney.

[Ryan]

Did they end up as scrap metal?

[Dianaa]

Most did as they were still covered by the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations, but apparently several or three are on loan to community groups.

The M113A1-FSV in the Littlefield Collection in the US apparently made US$100K but i'm still not confirmed on its current disposition.

[Frank v R]

the US is very strict on this , 450 CDN 113's went scrap here in the last couple of years, our museum tried to get parts from that lot , the powers that be were much less than helpful, but one has to wonder about ITAR after seeing news from Egypt and now Iraq as to how well ITAR works , if they let us have them at the very least they are in friendly hands and at home , I hate to see these go under the torch,

[Jes Andersen]

Some of the CDN carriers or various descriptions ended up at a scrap yard outside of Victoria BC. Manyof these have been reported as seen being trucked across the country on this forum. On a foraging trip, I asked about getting some of the wiring bits, switches and lights but was politely advised that nothing was to be sold and they had inspectors checking. I didn't have my camera but next time I get there, I'll see about some photos. I wanted the data plates and couldn't even get them. These guys are pretty good about dealing but they are very concerned about the loss of all gov't contracts so no go of any salvaging.
Too bad since I'd love to have one as a gate guard at the cabin!

Jes

[Robert Bergeron]

Hello guys,

any updates on the canadian m-113's and their fate ?

Thanks.

robert

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

Hello guys,

any updates on the canadian m-113's and their fate ?

Thanks.

robert

The contract was re-tendered a year or two ago. This time, it limited the radius of the bidders to 600 km from Farnham. It did not make much sense transporting them across Canada and onto a ferry just because the scrapyard in Victoria was the cheapest bidder.

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?...1&sf=ferm-clos

[David Dunlop]

Interesting thread! It made me think of a similar story about 20 years ago involving a fleet of US Army half tracks that had been sitting somewhere in Germany for decades until someone in Washington realized they were there and decided to get rid of them. MVPA ran a series of articles about them and the efforts to have them released to collectors, but IIRC the powers that be deemed them too dangerous to be released to the civilian market and I think Germany ended up hauling them off to a range somewhere to be used for target practice. There was apparently a large related store of spare parts but I do not know what ever became of them.

David

[Frank v R]

as I remember the Halftracks were in France and were all M-16's less the quad mount turret , these all ended up on the range , last time I was at Farnham one week there 60-70 113's next week 0 ,

[Robert Bergeron]

Frank,

I remember seeing those (50-60 ) M-113's assembled in a field in Farnham, Qc Canada from a couple of years ago. Rumour was at the time they were going for foreign aid to some african country.

Last fall when i returned to Farnham for annual weapons qualification they were gone !

Anyone on this net know where they have gone ?

It is getting harder to have access to ex-military equipment in Canada.Last vehicules we could buy were the Iltis 1/4 ton truck and they are very thin skinned and rust thru easily.

Because of all the Treaties Canada has adhered to and signed , i am of the opinion that it is the End of CONTEMPORARY MILITARY VEHICULE COLLECTING. Frustrating to say the least.

a LITTLE CONTROVERSY to spark comments here...



Robert

[rob love]

If you thought the Iltis was bad, just wait until the DND unleashes the LSVW on you. They are now in the initial stages of divestment. No idea though if they will be sold to the public. If they are, you'll hear about it, but mostly because the brakes squeal worse than anything else on the road.


There will always be small numbers sneak out of any vehicle type, often as write offs thru the scrap yards. It takes very devoted collectors to try and un-do the damage to these vehicles when the DND decides they are beyond economical repair.

[Frank v R]

sorry to tell you Rob , you will not see the LS , last trip to Pet , 2 Horse had their compound full of LS, HL, and ML's going to the chipper, also G-wagon will never come out, you will all need to wait for the Milcot's, does anyone know of anything new in the pipeline to replace all these vehicles, pray we don't get into another shooting war, the only good transport still in the system will be the MK 4 CB and don't wear them out!

[David Dunlop]

When 2PPCLI were still based here in Winnipeg, there was a vehicle in service members of the Regt referred to as "the Italian Bread Truck". I think it might have been built/assembled out West somewhere. Anyone know what it actually was, if it is still in service, or if it ever made it through Crown Assets to the civvies market?

David

[Frank v R]

you are speaking of the LSVW, we had a different name for them , please no one take offence , we called them wop wagons , they are Fiats, assembled by Western Star Trucks in BC, we thought they were bad , then came the CF version of the G-wagon , too bad we bought that one, the old ones were solid dumb trucks , easy to fix in the field , soft top G-wagons were in the comp. to replace the M-38A1's but they chose the Iltis with a gas engine , the LSVW was also a simple diesel, no electronics, now you can't fix any of the new wheeled vehicles in the field, polish those combat boots,

[David Dunlop]

Sadly, Frank, you have hit the nail squarely on the head and the powers that be (once again) do not seem to have learned anything from History.

We look back at WW2 and all wax poetic about the amazing aspects of German Tank design, but the weak point with them was the overly complex design which drastically reduced production capability. Compare to the Sherman and T34 which may not entirely have matched the technical level of the German tanks but could be built in greater numbers. The concept of keeping it simple was understood loud and clear.

Clearly, that lesson has been lost on the people today, both in the military and manufacturing sectors, when it comes to new equipment designs. It doesn't make it any easier, either, when you also factor in the present "disposable culture" we have created. We just don't seem to care anymore that things are no longer built to last. (Do not get me started on the current generation of maintenance free car batteries.)

You are right as far as the guys on the ground are concerned. Their best investment down the road will be a good pair of boots. At least they will have that option. Pity the pilots if the F35 ever goes into service. Technology is running amok with that project with no end in sight. Makes the old Avro Arrow look like the deal of the century now, doesn't it.


David

[chrisgrove]

The problem we have over here across the pond is that even military vehicles have to comply with EU emission regulations. That means that nice simple gas and diesel vehicles are ruled out. Though the French ACMAT trucks are said to be pretty simple and rugged. I expect the French, pragmatically, are just ignoring the EU rules as they often seem to do.

I expect that similar considerations apply to military vehicles across your side too.

Chris