How did Smokey light that Panther?

[bgoff]

I hope I'm in the right forum, it always seems to me that the NCO's have all the answers
I hope to make a 1/35 scale tribute to Smokey Smith VC for a local museum, but I'm a bit stumped, and where I usually look for answers the fellows get annoyed that one isn't trying hard enough at his own research.
Many of you know the story, Seaforth Highlanders cross the Savio river, Canadian armour cannot follow, basically Smokey stood 30 feet in front of a panther tank, shot it with a PIAT, dispatched and discouraged about 10 tank riders with a "Tommy" gun all whilst protecting his wounded pal Pte. Tennant, and subsequently awarded the VC.
As near as I can surmise, and this is just from what I've read in the last few weeks, the Panther may have belonged to either the 26 Panzer Div. or 76 Panzer Corps.
I wonder what numbers that tank would have worn?
The tank riding infantry may have been the 1 Parachute Div. or the 4 Parachute Regt.?
I'm assuming that for October 21 the uniform of all involved would be for cold weather, like NWE in 1945?
Apparently the PIAT round that hit the Panther disabled the tank and subsequently lit it on fire, the fire illuminated the German infantry whilst blinding them from seeing the attacking Smokey.
I wonder where the PIAT round struck to do that sort of damage? Possibly bounced under the chin of the mantlet to penetrate the thinner armour, entering the crew area?
Possibly striking the Panther's ammo bin?
I've looked long for a photo of the stricken AFV, that would answer a lot, too bad that there is not a more detailed chronicle of this event.
Thanks for any help, I have a couple of dioramas featuring local (Sask.) vets built up to go in the museum now, with your help maybe I can help the local folks remember Smokey all this coming season (and longer).
Please feel free to correct anything in my previous note, I'm a real novice at the research game.
Thanks!
Bruce

[DaveCox]

According to a simple 'google' search Smokey thought that it was hit "on the track or on the side".
Hope this helps.

Originally posted by bgoff
I hope I'm in the right forum, it always seems to me that the NCO's have all the answers

Through the good offices of my friend Paul Hocking, to whom I passed this post, we _might_ be able to add a bit; it may not take you a lot further along though in the specific detail and this would need possibly some long and painstaking research in the various museum archives in Europe.

as near as as I can surmise, and this is just from what I've read in the last few weeks, the Panther may have belonged to either the 26 Panzer Div. or 76 Panzer Corps.

Therefore 1st Battallion Panzer Regiment 4.

I wonder what numbers that tank would have worn?

That is the bit that would take some real leg-work probably in the German museum archives etc.

The tank riding infantry may have been the 1 Parachute Div. or the 4 Parachute Regt.?

See later attached.

Apparently the PIAT round that hit the Panther disabled the tank and subsequently lit it on fire, the fire illuminated the German infantry whilst blinding them from seeing the attacking Smokey.
I wonder where the PIAT round struck to do that sort of damage? Possibly bounced under the chin of the mantlet to penetrate the thinner armour, entering the crew area?
Possibly striking the Panther's ammo bin?

It is unlikely that a PIAT would penetrate any of the frontal armour and the later suggestion of severe track/front sprocket damage is more likely, however, without an accurate, eye-witness report this has to remain some considered conjecture.

I've looked long for a photo of the stricken AFV, that would answer a lot, too bad that there is not a more detailed chronicle of this event.

There is no photograph PH knows of that definitively links to the event, but that does not mean one doesn't exist unseen somewhere.

Its very rare I am allowed to post a PH manuscript but here it is; any of the numbers shown could be correct and one of them certainly is, which one exactly is the problem. Since 1 Abt. Pz.Rgt.4 was quite depleted by 21 Oct 44 it may be possible to eliminate quite a few tanks, however, some of the turret numbers will have been reused on the replacements. Whilst a fair number of replacement tanks were received by 31 Oct 44, just how many had arrived and were operational on 21 Oct is a matter of conjecture and it could be, as you see, a relatively small number of possibles.

R.

[John McGillivray]

According to the Canadian Official history “The Canadians in Italy 1943 to 1945” by Lt Col G.W.L. Nicholson the German Armour and troops were from the 26th Panzer Division, which consisted of the 26th Panzer Regiment and the 9th and 67th Panzergrenadier Regiments since 1943. At the Savio River the troops were from the 9th PzGn Regt.


The 4th Panzer Regiment was an independent Regiment in 1944 and was not part of a Division.

From Nicholson p 587:

“The action which followed is a striking demonstration of what may be accomplished by well-trained and determined infantry in the face of armoured attack, and is illumined by the gallantry of a member of the Seaforth's tank-hunting platoon—Private E.A. Smith.139 "C" Company was already under fire from the approaching enemy tanks as Pte. Smith led his PIAT team across an open field to a roadside ditch, which offered the close range he needed. Almost at once a Mark V came lumbering down the road, sweeping the ditches with its machine-guns, and wounding Smith's companion. At a range of only 30 feet, and exposed to the full view of the enemy, Pte. Smith fired his PIAT. The bomb stopped the Panther, and its driver made frantic but futile efforts to turn around and retreat. Immediately ten German infantrymen tumbled off the back of the tank and charged Smith with machine pistols and grenades. Without hesitation he moved into the centre of the road, shot down four of them with his tommy gun, and dispersed the remainder. A second tank now opened fire from a safe distance and more Grenadiers began closing in on Smith. But the intrepid Highlander met this second threat just as steadfastly. Replenishing his ammunition from his wounded comrade in the ditch he continued to protect him, fighting off the enemy with his sub-machine gun until they gave up and withdrew in disorder. In recognition of his heroism Pte. "Smoky" Smith (as the Canadian public came to know him) was awarded the Victoria Cross, the third* and last to be granted a Canadian in the Italian campaign.140 The counter-attack had cost the enemy dear. In addition to the tank put out of action by Smith the Seaforth platoon had knocked out with their PIATs and mines a second Panther, a half-track, a scout car and two self-propelled guns—an impressive bag for an infantry force with neither tanks nor anti-tank guns, and one which reflected the highest credit on the platoon commander. Throughout the action Sergeant K.P. Thompson, in the words of the recommendation which brought him a well-deserved D.C.M.,f "with complete disregard for his own safety moved across open ground swept by enemy fire, from one PIAT position to another, encouraging his men, re-siting the weapons to counter the enemy's moves, and controlling the defence." Later "C" Company discovered a third Mark V bogged down in a ditch near the scene of the fight. It was captured intact and subsequently went to help solve the equipment problems of Popski's Private Army.”

[jeff davis]

the Seaforths have a photo of the tank in front of the church in a ditch,I have a copy of the photo that I had smokey sighn at an event in maple Ridge i will have to dig it out and post it
regards jeff

[bgoff]

John, Jeff. FV623, and Dave, thanks for your help, I'm greatly obliged , your info gives a lot of possible leads to run through Google.
I'm starting to consider other ways of trying to model this event, possibly have to leave some details un-distinguished, if others see this and think they'd like to do a similar display, I think that's a good thing.
Sure would be nice to see that photo Jeff!
Many thanks again!
Bruce

[jeff davis]

pic of Smokeys tank

[bgoff]

I think I've seen that, or one like it before, I think that Miguel Jiminez may have built a diorama of it in this position already, but not with any info as to how it got there.
I suppose that it had been pushed off the road after it was disabled, and that it is in the Savio river?
Thanks for posting this pic, it will be a great help!

Bruce

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Later "C" Company discovered a third Mark V bogged down in a ditch near the scene of the fight. It was captured intact and subsequently went to help solve the equipment problems of Popski's Private Army.”

That's not "Somkey's tank" but is the third tank that was found in the ditch.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Bruce,
I don't know how much creedance I can add.My dad who was the RCASC CMP C60 ammunition truck driver(his photo is in The Liberation of Holland book sitting on a motorcycle in front of a convoy of C60's in 1945) drove Smokey(in the cab for warmth) in Italy back to the rear after the action and told me that Smokey was wearing a pair of black coveralls over his battle dress and that Smokey mentioned to him that he got the first tank,with infantry all over it,in the soft underbelly as it rose up out of either a hole, ditch but I somehow remember him saying a shell crater in front of the bridge approach,as it neared the bridge, with a piat and thereby blocked the way of the second tank following.I think ,as my father reinterated,Smokey then sprayed the infanteers who were riding on the first tank.As him drove him back from the front,all Smokey wanted was a cup of tea..
Hope this somewhat first hand account helps for your diorama.

[bgoff]

That's great background on something that would be good in a book, I read an exerpt that one of Smokey's pals put into a Canadian Army website about a recent foray that he and Smokey had taken into some London pubs, after his VC ribbon (or miniature) was spotted they never had to pay again, excellent read.
Back ground info like your dad gave you is all part of the big story to me, it leaves me wishing there was more, but I know from some of the tales my dad left me with, that some stories can only be recalled in the short form, we're just lucky that you are able to share.
That part about the black coveralls sure has me wondering, like was it just over his battledress? Under all his web kit?
Was he wearing black coveralls when he was firing at the Panther? Black coveralls for warmth or night camo, or just because his battledress was at the cleaners?
I've just found your dad's picture on page 88 in my book, 182 on the front fender, is that a Norton?
Thanks for the help!
Bruce

Originally posted by jeff davis
pic of Smokeys tank

Jeff, as we have now seen that is not the subject Panther, however, it is likely from the same unit and there is a bit of detail we can see but not identify in a very compressed picture.

If you would like to send me a scan direct, full-size, in high resolution, we may well be able to positively identify this particular tank. The study of the picture would be by Paul H and myself only and it will not be used for any other purpose.

Many megs of picture file is not a problem here.

click here to send an e-mail

Richard.

[jeff davis]

We had an event in Maple ridge and had Smokey out to see My Carrier and sighn some Photos,Smokey Identified the Tank as His Tank as I showed Him the Photo.He sighned it ,Joe Siveki also Id the Tank as Smokeys ,Joe was just down the Ditch from Smokey ,perhaps time has fogged their memories ,sadly Joe and Smokey have passed away since the time of the Photos.

Originally posted by jeff davis
Smokey Identified the Tank as His Tank as I showed Him the Photo.

Good stuff, send a huge scan if you wish as previous; we think there is some detail to identify it, there appears to be enough visible, but currently undefinable turret number to resolve by elimination the exact usage and operating unit of the vehicle.

R.

[Michael Dorosh]

I was always under the impression the area between the road wheels and the upper hull was quite vulnerable to shaped charge weapons - ie above the track but below the upper turret overhand. As Smokey himself said "can't miss from 10 feet away".

[bgoff]

I'm not quite sure I understand, I understood it was a head-on shot Smokey took at about 30 ft. Do you mean the armour above the road wheels on the side?
I'm starting to build the panther now, gradually accumulating some fallschirmjagers, not really my style so it will take some more studying.
I think I'll have to take the easy way out, and build it just prior to the PIAT being fired.
Hope I don't get anyone's hopes up about seeing this done real soon, I'm ice-age slow, especially when I start trying to find all the details
BG

[bgoff]

I've been thinking all along that this was a head on shot, as they say in full view of the enemy, I've always thought that would be a terribly dangerous place to be.
Should it be that the shot was taken from a position in the ditch, beside the vehicle? Not a vulnerable spot regarding the tank, but still 10 paratroopers up close and personal.
Here I am getting confused again.
BG