Photo ID needed...HELP

Bill Miller · #1 06-04-06, 04:58

Clive Law sent me a copy of the following photo, it is some sort of shield modification to a turretless late model RamII. I'm wondering if there are enough clues in the photo to give it a date and place. In a higher resolution scan you can read the signs in the background. Arrows pointing to the right, top one reads, "R&I OFFICE". The bottom reads, "All Vehicles"?

I have a faint suspicion what the photo might be of but as not to taint others opinions I'll keep it to myself for now.

It would be nice to pinpoint where and when this photo was taken? Any and all ideas welcome...

Bill.

Bill Miller · #2 06-04-06, 05:03

Here is a closer look at the background.

Clive also has a different view of the front of this vehicle at his Ram Registry site:
http://www.servicepub.com/ramphotos.htm

Bill.

sapper740 · #3 06-04-06, 15:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Miller
I have a faint suspicion what the photo might be of but as not to taint others opinions I'll keep it to myself for now.

It would also be interesting to see what is in the box within the turret ring. It looks like it is roll stamped alternately with 3126.5 and a Wehrmachtadler. Anyone have any ideas on what that may be?

CHIMO!

Bill Miller · #4 06-04-06, 16:08

Hi Derek,

It is not exactly clear in this photo, but the object you refer to is not actually inside the turret ring but rather the other side of the steel "shield" the trooper is holding open. The steel (if it is steel?) seems to have the markings (3126.5 and the design) printed on one side. Since you think the markings are German, does that place this photo on the continent (Belgium or Holland?)..

Bill.

Bill Miller · #5 06-04-06, 16:22

Here is another angle of the same item. with a detail inset of the markings.

Hanno Spoelstra · #6 06-04-06, 16:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Miller
It is not exactly clear in this photo, but the object you refer to is not actually inside the turret ring but rather the other side of the steel "shield" the trooper is holding open. The steel (if it is steel?) seems to have the markings (3126.5 and the design) printed on one side. Since you think the markings are German, does that place this photo on the continent (Belgium or Holland?)..

Bill, intriguing stuff! But what is the purpose of this shield modification?

It seems the material used could be aluminium sheeting, because the inside shown in the first picture seems lighter than the steel hinges and stay, and reflective. The German markings could be protective paper? Since the thin sheet metal would serve no purpose, I'd say a couple of sheets of aircraft aluminium were sourced to mock up a shield, which was to be reproduced in armour.
Because of the German sheet metal and the impressed civilian car with white star on the door, I'm quite certain these pictures were taken somewhere in NW Europe, probably Belgium or Holland as you suggest.

My €0,02 anyway!

Hanno

Bill Miller · #7 06-04-06, 17:31

Hi Hanno,

Clive's photo are all unmarked but I think Clive may have stumbled onto some very important photos. When I first saw these yesterday I immediately thought of a notation I read in the 1CACR War Diaries about a prototype shield on a kangaroo.

On October 26, 1944. Kangaroo 2i/c Major Bingham went to 2 Tks Tp Workshop just outside Antwerp in Morstel to inspect a "2 ft high" shield on a kangaroo.

I also recall reading but couldn't find the actual reference before heading to work today the reason for the shield. The thought was protect the empouched men from SA fire. However it was rejected because it could just as easily deflect SA fire down into the turret ring.

If you look at Clive's other photo on the Ram Registry you'll see there is actually two Rams parked back to back. One Ram has this flimsy shield on the rear of the turret ring, The other (shown in Clives' other photo) has a much more robust and taller shield on the front of the turret ring.

I thought the photo I originally posted was more interesting as it showed some details of "place". I believe that the photos Clive found are of the kangaroo(s) at 2 Tk Tp Wksp. October-November 1944, but it would be nice to accurately place the scene to be sure.

Bill.

sapper740 · #8 06-04-06, 18:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Hi Derek,

It is not exactly clear in this photo, but the object you refer to is not actually inside the turret ring but rather the other side of the steel "shield" the trooper is holding open. The steel (if it is steel?) seems to have the markings (3126.5 and the design) printed on one side. Since you think the markings are German, does that place this photo on the continent (Belgium or Holland?)..

Bill.

AAh yes, now I see that it is part of a shield mock up.

3126.5 doesn't correspond to any standard thickness of a sheet metal, either steel or aluminum. The closest guage to that number is OO guage. You can clearly see that the sheet is no where near that thick. That number may refer to an alloy, although, not being a metallurgist I have no idea what type.

CHIMO!

servicepub (RIP) · #9 06-04-06, 18:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Miller
I think Clive may have stumbled onto some very important photos.
Bill.

It's the story of my life. I 'stumble' onto things.. sigh...

It's nice that the forum allows photos in Ottawa to be identified to a copy of a War Diary in Alberta while inviting commentary from Holland, Texas, etc...

I suggest that Hanno undertake a personal recconnaissance of every back alley in Morstel to identify this place.

Mark W. Tonner · #10 06-04-06, 19:00

Hi Bill;

I would agree that the photo(s) were taken at 2 Tk Tps Wksp (Morstel). One thing that identifies it as a workshop area is the sign 'R & I OFFICE, ALL VEHICLES', ie:

The Receipt & Issue office is usually the first place you go when either dropping something off or picking something up from a workshop, or in this case, the R & I office is for just vehicles ("A" and "B").

Also, Maj. Bingham went to the workshop on 27 Oct 44 (see attached diary entry).

Cheers

Mark W. Tonner · #11 06-04-06, 19:03

Quote:

Originally posted by servicepub
It's the story of my life. I 'stumble' onto things.. sigh...

... old age setting in thats all........

and you probably need new glasses......

Mark W. Tonner · #12 06-04-06, 20:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Miller
If you look at Clive's other photo on the Ram Registry you'll see there is actually two Rams parked back to back. One Ram has this flimsy shield on the rear of the turret ring, The other (shown in Clives' other photo) has a much more robust and taller shield on the front of the turret ring.

I thought the photo I originally posted was more interesting as it showed some details of "place". I believe that the photos Clive found are of the kangaroo(s) at 2 Tk Tp Wksp. October-November 1944, but it would be nice to accurately place the scene to be sure.

Hi Bill;

I would say that both Clive's photo and yours were taken in the same location. Compare the two photos attached. Clive's on the left and yours on the right (notice the background).

Cheers

Bill Miller · #13 06-04-06, 20:24

Hi Mark,

So there is no misunderstanding, all the photos referenced here belong to Clive, there was a series of five related photos. I'll let Clive explain where they came from.

Clive was unsure of the background behind thse photos as they are not marked. I saw the first photo and it triggered a memory of the "shield" reference from the 1CACR war diary. As I also mentioned I have, somewhere, at home more detailed reference to this shield. As soon as I can find it again I will post.

Bill.

Mark W. Tonner · #14 06-04-06, 20:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Miller
So there is no misunderstanding, all the photos referenced here belong to Clive, there was a series of five related photos. I'll let Clive explain where they came from.

Thanks Bill.

Col Tigwell · #15 07-04-06, 00:14

Looking at the "paper" on the shield, could the material actually be perspex.

Now I am only guessing, but if it was that material, the protective paper would not be removed, until at least the task was finished.

just a thought to consider.

Regards

Col

servicepub (RIP) · #16 07-04-06, 01:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Miller
I'll let Clive explain where they came from.

Bill.

Simple. These are small prints 5cm x 5cm (2 inches square) that I found at a militaria show. This was when the Ram, Volume 1 was being prepared and I thought that for $3.00 I would take them. As it turns out they weren't used and only surfaced from my photo archive when I went on-line with the Ram registry. Serendipity!