electronic ignition

[Vic Eaton]

HI ALL
Anybody fitted electronic ignition is it worth doing to improve starting and reliability ect
REGARDS VIC EATON UK .

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Vic Eaton
HI ALL
Anybody fitted electronic ignition is it worth doing to improve starting and reliability ect
REGARDS VIC EATON UK .

My only experience with electronic ignition was when I retro-fitted a unit to a 1972 GMC "Jimmy" I owned years ago. I replaced the existing ignition with a high voltage capacitor discharge igniton. It worked just fine when the weather was dry, but when it was damp or humid as Vancouver often is, the unit would cross-fire within the distributor. The only cure was to remove the distributor cap and dry it with a hair dryer. Once the cap was dry, the engine would start just fine and the engine heat would keep it dry while running. I tried several cures to seal the distributor but none worked. My advice if you live in a damp climate is to forego the electronic ignition and stick with the tried and true battery and coil ignition.


CHIMO!

[Vic Eaton]

HI DEREK
Thanks for the reply i wondered if there was a down side im not sure how this systme works i think it magnetic it takes the place of points and condenser DAMP in TEXAS i dont believe it i thought you were basking in sunshine all the time .
REGARDS VIC EATON UK.

[cletrac (RIP)]

I have an old IHC 3 ton with a 345 V8 in it. The distributor was constantly giving trouble so I put in one of those electronic point replacer things about three years ago and haven't had a bit of trouble since. It starts way better even at -40 and seems to have more power to boot.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Vic Eaton
HI DEREK
Thanks for the reply i wondered if there was a down side im not sure how this systme works i think it magnetic it takes the place of points and condenser DAMP in TEXAS i dont believe it i thought you were basking in sunshine all the time .
REGARDS VIC EATON UK.

Before I moved to Texas I lived in Vancouver, B.C., Canada where the weather is very, very wet. In fact, we once had 39 days and nights of constant rain...I was starting to consider building an Ark when the rain finally let up!! Don't let my experience completely dissuade you from trying an electronic ignition system. My experience was over 30 years ago and I'm hoping the manufacturers continue to work bugs out of their systems. The cross-firing in damp conditions is just something to be aware of and be prepared to counter. My system was also one of the first very high spark voltage systems.
I'm just so used to cleaning and adjusting points that it's almost no bother at all. I also always carry a spare condenser with me. Good luck!


CHIMO!

Originally posted by sapper740
My experience was over 30 years ago and I'm hoping the maunfacturers continue to work bugs out of their systems. The cross-firing in damp conditions is just something to be aware of and be prepared to counter. My system was also one of the first very high spark voltage systems.
I'm just so used to cleaning and adjusting points that it's almost no bother at all. I also always carry a spare condenser with me.

We need to be careful, two systems are marketed under the banner of "Electronic"; one truly is and the other is barely!

Quite right, the full electronic systems using an energy discharge system somewhat like the modern photographic xenon flashgun can play merry hell with systems never designed for it and produce spark voltages that most HT cable can barely contain. I see this commonly on the flathead custom/racers forums; any attempt to route HT cable in the standard steel conduit is a recipe for disaster it seems, with cross-firing and tracking cables a continual problem.

The other system is only electronic in as far as a solid state switch replaces the points and this is triggered by an opto-electronic or Hall Effect device as are the full electronic versions. These solid state switches give a useful but modest increase in spark volts since the switching edge is far sharper with no possibility of point arcing or the previously essential capacitor (condensor) spoiling the switch fall time and thus the rate of coil magnetic energy transfer into HT volts. The distributor shaft is usefully relieved of point spring side load and the use of a commutating or chopper disc to trigger the system means the timing and dwell angle is set for ever.

More is usually better but a lot more is sometimes counter-productive!

R.

[Vic Eaton]

HELLO ALL
Thanks for the replys chaps , I thought this might open a can of worms with everybody having differnt expierances will study these replys before trying this out DERICK my mate has just moved to VANCOUVER ISLAND He will be pleased if he has to build an ARK .

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Vic Eaton
HELLO ALL
Thanks for the replys chaps , I thought this might open a can of worms with everybody having differnt expierances will study these replys before trying this out DERICK my mate has just moved to VANCOUVER ISLAND He will be pleased if he has to build an ARK .

Depending on what part of England your chum is from, he might feel completely at home on the Island. Do you know where on Vancouver Island he has moved? I can point him to many of the sights there are to see there.


CHIMO!

[marco]

Hello all,

I fitted both Staghound engines with electronic ignition systems.
The ignition points and the condenser are replaced with a magnetic "sender" and a receiving unit.

The result was that the engines start more easily now and they idle smoother.

My experience with electronic ignitions for 6Volt systems is that battery and wiring must be in perfect order, otherwise the voltage on the ignition system will be to low to get a spark.
Sometimes, a special ignition coil has to be used.

Electronic systems are quite expensive, and a good rebuild/maintained conventional ignition system will give everything our 60-year old engines need.


Marco

[Vic Eaton]

HI DEREK
My mate moved to ALBERTA and worked for fording coal he went to CANADA about thirty years ago he was from here HERTFORDSHIRE he moved to VANCOUVER ISLAND as he has now retired and wanted to get away from the cold of ALBERTA its a good thing he likes sailing judging by the rainfall you talked about the place he lives is called COURTENAY .he came back here just last week i had not seen him for fifty years .
regards vic uk.

[Vic Eaton]

HI MARCO
Yes that sounds the same system i am looking at it has a high output coil havant made up my mind whether to give it a try or not yet. thanks for the reply
regards vic uk.

[Bob Carriere]

I have also been considering a unit called Pertronix.... about $100 Cdn and everything hids inside the original distributor.

Knowing how tight a cab 11 engine compartment is a more maintenaince free system would be a real plus. However, when you check forums like the Stovebolt you will get a lot bad vibrations from some members. At one point they had the reputation of just plain quiting..... fried..kaput .... and owners reverted to carrying a spare convention dist. to get back home/

Now changing a distributor on a "normal" Chev six may be easy but on a cab 11 I would have to turn it upside down, sit the darn thing on my lap and burp it.

I have exchanged some e-mails with Phil Waterman.... he feels if a good set up distributor can run for years.... with some maintenance than that is good enough for him. Phil has been running is big C60 for some years and except for chewing up fan belt it has been reliable.

I have managed to pick up a few NOS circa 1958-59 GM disributors so I could carry a spare with me..... but darn it I am still curious about the Pertronix.

Anybody else have experience...comments.

Bob C

[Vic Eaton]

HI BOB
That one you are looking at sounds similar it all fits inside the distribtor the one here is gauranteed for two years all you see is two wires coming from the dist ill get it and see how it performs .
REGARDS VIC UK.

Originally posted by Vic Eaton
HI BOB
That one you are looking at sounds similar it all fits inside the distribtor the one here is gauranteed for two years all you see is two wires coming from the dist ill get it and see how it performs .
REGARDS VIC UK.

Vic, have a look at Jolley Engineering from Malvern - Worcs. They do kits for all manner of stuff including the flathead, most usual WWII mil engines and the RR B Range too.

I have spoken to them on their show stand and they say it is possible to adapt the system quite readily for virtually any distributor if its not immediately in their extensive range.

http://www.classicheads.com/Electronic_Igx.html

What they offer is a solid state points replacement with a non-contact trigger system.

R.

[Vic Eaton]

HI RICHARD
That is the company i have ordered from JOLLY ENGINEERING They are very helpful . just waiting for it to arrive
well ill be blowed its here so will have a look at it and report back.
REGARDS VIC UK.

Originally posted by Vic Eaton
HI RICHARD
That is the company i have ordered from JOLLY ENGINEERING They are very helpful . just waiting for it to arrive
well ill be blowed its here so will have a look at it and report back.
REGARDS VIC UK.

Hi Vic,
I'll be most interested as I am sort of saving up to install one in the Stalwart, although I have the jigs to set these distributors properly, its a bit of a pain necessitating the removal of the whole distributor, with all its screened cables and the breather tubes; then a complete engine re-time when it goes back.

The hassle with 8 cyl RR B Range engines is that the twin points alternately fire half the engine each, and do the dwell angle extension job at the same time. Getting them dead right is essential and tedious whereas the electronic kit would remove this time consuming maintenance job for ever.

Lets see how you go.

All the best,

R.

[marco]

Mine came from Jolley Engineering also.
These people know what they are talking about and are very helpfull if there are any questions.

The system they use is so compact that (I think) it could be customized to fit in almost every distributor.

The 24Volt system I needed wasn't a problem also.

Best regards,

Marco

[Phil Waterman]

Been setting up a bunch of distributors this year for the Chevy stove bolt engines. Couple of thoughts before or during conversion to pointless ignition, be sure to check the play in the distributor shaft and check that he mechanical advance weights are free. Discovered two distributors where the weights were stuck or sticking. A more powerful spark helps mask starting problems but won’t really do much for performance.

Only picked it up because of checking with dwell and tack and the advance and dwell kept changing, every time engine was accelerated and returned to idle it would be 5 or so degrees different high or low.

Checking the timing on the chevys is such fun with the timing mark down behind the starter but checking engine with the engine on test stand made checking it several times much easier.

[Tim Sullivan]

Bob,

Saw this thread and was going to mention Petronix before you did. They are quite well recieved in the Jeep community, several guys I know of run them in their autolite dizzys with a 6 volt system and swear by them. Faster start-up and worry-free performance. I'm contemplating switching my points over to a Petronix system, only because it's one less thing to worry about...byt my dizzy seems to be working quite well right now...so you know the rule, dont' mess with it when it's working correctly, right? hehehe....

Petronix are great, they drop into your distributor (they have different models for different manufacturers) and it's often only one extra wire that needs to be installed, which, unless you know what to look for, isn't going to ruin authenticity (which can get quite ridiculously anal in said jeep community).

If your dizzy is good mechyanically otherwise Bob, you can't go wrong with the Petronix system, by it's reputation. Again, I have no first-hand experience, but from the guys I know who have used (and loved it) I wouldn't hesitate in installing it.

They also manufactuer a "high performance" coil which is supposed to deliver a better spark, etc....fwiw.

http://www.pertronix.com/ - manufacturer's website....

Tim

[marco]

Hello all,

Just another tip for setting the ignition timing, either electronic or conventional:

Because in the Staghound you can't see the timing mark on the flywheel (it is below the starter motor also), a timing light can't be used.

I use a vacuum gauge instead.
After setting the idling rpm about correctly, connect the vacuum gauge to the inlet manifold.
Now turn the distributor so that the vacuum gauge gives its highest reading.
When the engine is in good condition, this reading should not be fluctuating.

Marco

Originally posted by marco
Hello all,

Just another tip for setting the ignition timing, either electronic or conventional:

I use a vacuum gauge instead.
After setting the idling rpm about correctly, connect the vacuum gauge to the inlet manifold.
Now turn the distributor so that the vacuum gauge gives its highest reading.

Quite right Marco, but you need to be sure of your engine and ignition timing data first or there are some nasty surprises for the unwary!!

There may be more occasions but here's two where you could be very wrong setting the timing dynamically by vacuum reading:

The Morris-Commercial OH type 6 cyl engine in mil service has a TDC pointer on the flywheel and a separate timing pointer, the timing is 3/8" of flywheel circumference after TDC static.

The RR B Range engines are also timed after TDC static too (0º - 2º) and in both instances idle occurs with the engine still quite retarded and setting these by vacuum reading would result in gross over-advance in the running range when centrifugal advance occurs a little over idle speed.

We deduce both these engines have the distributor advance curve so arranged in order that hand cranking can be done without any danger of a kick-back.

R.

[Tony Smith]

Most Ford owners have ignored the Pertronix hype over the years, as the company tended to concentrate on more modern engines, or older GM engines. Hurrah! They have finally released a unit for the Ford Crab distributor that operates on 6v. The part No. is 1285LSP6. I see they are also appearing on E-BAY

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Hurrah! They have finally released a unit for the Ford Crab distributor that operates on 6v. The part No. is 1285LSP6.

Yes I'm planning to fit one of these myself Tony, but only because the dizzy is so inaccessible. Points gap needs adjustment after a while because the rubbing block wears down, and I won't always feel like removing the grille and radiator to do it!

However I won't leave home without a spare conventional dizzy. When it comes to electronics there's no such thing as roadside repairs! When these pick ups blow you're stranded unless you have a spare unit. It's happened to me three times - once on my old V12 Jag, and twice on my much newer 302 Ford.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

However I won't leave home without a spare conventional dizzy. When it comes to electronics there's no such thing as roadside repairs! When these pick ups blow you're stranded unless you have a spare unit. It's happened to me three times - once on my old V12 Jag, and twice on my much newer 302 Ford.

Hi Tony,
My experience of electronic conversions are not failures of the unit or module, but the higher voltage HT destroying the rotor arms or centre carbon area of the distributor cap. Maybe this was the one particular type, do Pertronix kits increase the HT voltage above the normal 15,000 or so volts?

[cletrac (RIP)]

With Petronix you keep your regular coil so voltage is the same. The conversion just replaces the points with a magnetic unit

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by cletrac

With Petronix you keep your regular coil so voltage is the same. The conversion just replaces the points with a magnetic unit

Thanks, sounds like that is the one to go for then.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

My experience of electronic conversions are not failures of the unit or module, but the higher voltage HT destroying the rotor arms or centre carbon area of the distributor cap.

Yes that's true Richard, it's uncommon for the pick up module to fail, and extreme longevity can be expected from genuine parts. My Jag was '78 model and failed circa 2006, and the auto elec told me it was the original part (optical pick up module). My Ford is '91 model and the original part failed in 2010 (magnetic pick up module). As is typical these days you can't buy the module alone, you have to replace the entire distributor! At $600 for a genuine Ford distributor I opted for the aftermarket job at $300, and a year or so later the module blew again! I chanced my arm again with the aftermarket job and so far so good, but I live in constant fear of it dying on me - which will no doubt happen on a country backroad somewhere interstate with a fully loaded tandem trailer in tow! The ramifications for a blitz breakdown are even worse, so I'd be crazy not to carry a spare dizzy. It's worth it for peace of mind alone.

As you say Richard it's high voltage that does the most damage. Personally I've never understood the obsession with 40,000 volt coils and big fat sparks if the motor is already starting easily and firing on all cylinders. Does a flamethrower light your BBQ any better than a match? Same goes for any air/fuel charge - it either lights or it doesn't, there's no in-between range. As far as I can make out these high voltage systems are all just marketing hype for rev heads, with no basis in combustion theory and no empirical evidence of improved performance. Call me a skeptic but until it can be demonstrated otherwise I'll stick with the 6V system that got these vehicles through WWII in all sorts of climates on all sorts of crappy fuel!

[Bob Carriere]

I installed mine on my cab 11 on a rebuilt 261.

Not a lot of mileage but the engine runs very well.

Using the 40k coil really gives a very hot spark...... does it need to be that hot a spark ?? probably not.

With the high voltage you can check very easily if the cables/sparkplugs are firing...... with the original skinny hard wire spark plug cables if you have wet hands and hold a wire while rest the other hand on the crossmember you get jump started. I now have modern larger size sparkplug wires.

Also had to increase the gap to 40thou on the plugs.....engine ran considerably smoother. Got the tip on the web from experienced user of Pertronix.

Knowing how fickled a CMP can be, I would not leave on a long jaunt with out a spare fully set up dizzy ready to drop in the engine block stored in an emergency waterproof ammo can..... mind you on a cab 11 that may take some doing to even access the dizzt side without a half hour of undoing engine cover screws.


Maybe that explains why most cab 11 and 12 we have acquired never had the full engine "doghouse" in place..

The electronic system did away with the points, condenser, ballast. It is hardly noticeable and I can't burn the points by leaving the power on.

Bob C.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

The electronic system did away with the points, condenser, ballast. It is hardly noticeable and I can't burn the points by leaving the power on.

Yes I agree Bob, and you'll never have to re-set the timing. It really is a no brainer, esp. with the distributor so inaccessible.

I remain skeptical about high voltage systems making engines run smoother, that just tells me the system replaced was faulty in some way. However there's certainly no harm in them, provided the whole of the HT system is upgraded, not just the coil as is often the case. Sounds like you've done all that Bob.

Perhaps it's another confidence thing, I must admit it's pleasing to see and hear a big fat spark!

[motto]

My experience is not with CMPs but with a 6x6 Dodge Weapons Carrier. I installed a Pertronix 6volt unit in the vehicle twelve months ago and I am completely satisfied with the performance.

If the Dodge had had a 12volt system I would have gone for the Hotspark brand ignition unit as it is cheaper and comes with a mounting plate that replaces the original points mounting plate. I had to strip everything off the original points mounting plate and re-use it for the Pertronix installation. Unfortunately Hotspark did not supply 6volt units.

David