Possible engine for Cab 13 C15a

Jordan Baker · #1 30-07-06, 04:37

Hi everyone

Would this engine be possible for fitting into a Cab 13 C15a. Im not exactly sure what kind it is other then its a GM engine. Its in the remains of my Grandfather's 1974 GMC Sierra pickup. It looks very similar to the GM 261 and I know they would work in a CMP.

After speaking to my Grandfather about it he said it had very few miles on it as the truck was mostly used around the farm or for short runs around the Hamilton area. He stopped driving it about 15 years ago as the body adnf rame had complety rusted out. The best part is that its mine free of charge. All that I have to do is get it out and battle the many yellow jackets that have called the body home.

If the engine is a no go for the CMP would one out of an International Harvester truck fit. Looking at it through a hole between the hood and fender it looks very similar to the Chevy straight six. I will post photos of it in the next few days.

Anyway here are the photos of the GM engine.

mike mckinley · #2 30-07-06, 06:41

hi jordan

that looks to me like either a 230 or a 250cid gm engine, and i'm not sure how it would interchange with a cmp trans. i tried to find this out when i began in the hobby, with no answers, so i could only assume that no one had ever tried it. hopefully by now, someone will have an answer.

cheers!!
mike

sapper740 · #3 30-07-06, 07:59

Quote:

Originally posted by mike mckinley
hi jordan

that looks to me like either a 230 or a 250cid gm engine, and i'm not sure how it would interchange with a cmp trans. i tried to find this out when i began in the hobby, with no answers, so i could only assume that no one had ever tried it. hopefully by now, someone will have an answer.

cheers!!
mike

It's most likely a 250c.i., 125 net HP@3800rpm, 220ft/lbs. net Torque at 1600 rpm. You can find out for sure with the numbers cast into the block, they're on the passenger side, above the dipstick. Probably 377184 or close to it, I'm working from memory here. I have one in my C15, but whoever installed it took out the original tranny and replaced it along with the engine. My understanding is that the 235, 261, and possibly the 292 will bolt right up to the original transmission. The 230 and 250 won't. Hope this info helps.

Barry Churcher · #4 30-07-06, 13:47

Jordan, the biggest problem is the bell housing for your engine has the clutch fork on the left side and a CMP is on the right. A CMP bell housing will not fit that engine. To fit this engine you will have to do some modifications, which is not insurmountable, it just depends how much work you are willing to do. These were good engines and parts are easily available. If this one runs real well it might be cheaper to do the work for installation than pay someone the big bucks to overhaul a proper engine. I have a C60 that was Bill Gregs and it has this engine.

Barry

Jordan Baker · #5 30-07-06, 17:27

Thanks all for the help in determining what kind of engine it is and if it will fit. I know this one is hooked up to an automatic trans and my unlce has told me it is broken. Thats partly why they stopped using it.

Im going to check out the other truck and see if its engine could be used. I will have pictures later today.

Stewart Loy · #6 30-07-06, 21:18

Jordan,

I know some Canadian heritage military vehicle forum owners might frown on this, but you should try the Stovebolt forum at:

http://www.stovebolt.com/bboard/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

Smart guys like Bob Carriere go there to ask questions - and get answers about Chevy 6 bangers, swaps, conversions, and other good stuff. Most of the guys think that steering wheel is on the left side of the cab, but other than that they seem OK. If it has been done with an inline Chev, these guys would kno whow to do it.

If you scrape off some grease and wasp poo you can probably find a serial or casting number to help yourself find parts - that seems to be the first question that the experts ask when some newbie queries - "What do I have and will it go into a .... "

Stewart

Jordan Baker · #7 31-07-06, 03:00

Managed with the help of a pry bar to get the hood up on the other truck. A few less Yellow jackekts nests also helped.

This other truck is a 1973 International 1510 series truck. I tried looking around on the net about engine info but didn't really find anything. A decal on the aircleaner reads "International Power Thrift Six".

Anyone know if this would also work in my CMP.

David Ellery · #8 31-07-06, 04:54

Hi Jordan,
This picture might upset a few people , but let me assure you it is only a temporary measure to see if a 75 GM 6cyl could be bolted with a bit of help to a GM CMP box, and yep it does I was surprised that the gear box spline simply slid through the throw out bearing ,clutch assemply and fitted nicely into the pilot bearing in the flywheel. The engine is a lovely Holden 202 Australian GM which I couldn't help but drop into the carrier to see if it could power it around the paddocks. I'm pleased to say it performed bueatifully. So give it a go just for the challenge and fun of it if anything. cool gear change a

Tony Smith · #9 31-07-06, 14:26

Quote:

Originally posted by David Ellery

This picture might upset a few people. The engine is a lovely Holden 202 Australian GM. cool gear change a

And looks like a good test-bed for a Portee-Green GM gearbox!!
This Carrier is becoming more and more "GM NZ" every day!

Barry Churcher · #10 01-08-06, 01:54

Jordan, out of these two engines I would go with the Chevy. It would be a lot less work and from my experience the International is a real dog.

Those old Chevys are super reliable and I see it has the HEI distributor which is bullet proof. I have a bell housing around here I think that will fit that engine. A hydraulic clutch would eliminate the reverse fork problem. Clutches and flywheels are the same for many years. The engine has side motor mounts but that's just a matter of making some brackets. This engine would certainly work well if this truck is to be a CC7 driver .

Barry

Bob Carriere · #11 03-08-06, 04:30

Hi Jordan

You may have a very good engine in that 75 250????

You really need to track down the serial number near the distributor and the casting numbers on the side of the block and the heads.......

Your best bet is to pull that six out of the truck...... don't give up on the auto tranny..... it may be cheaper to fix that six and the tranny than the $3500 to rebuild a 261.....

Your challenge will be to clear up enough sheet metal on the cab 13 to figure out the fit..... critical willbe distance to clear the fan to original rad mountings... or move the rad forward slightly.....

You need to measure the lenght of the auto tranny to transfer case... you need enough room for a specail fabricated sliding drive shaft..... or shop around for an auto from a van that will have a significantly shorter rear horn on the auto tranny.

Get familiar with the Stovebolt web site... they are experts i the wings there that can help you with even specific GM parts number.

If you know the exact year of the trucka GM book form the library will tell you everything youned to know about the engine.

The reason I am so hot on the auto tranny is you will not have to worry about the 216 bellhousing to fit.... which I do not think it will even with some of the old freindly "adapter plates... cluthc is on wrong ride .. so is starter....

Pull out the engine... fabricate an engine stand... better still come to Ottawa in August and I will personnaly give you the front end of a scrap C13 frame to practice on and use as a test bed......

... and if all else fails...... I will buy the whole truck from Grampa as it is the eventual comversion I plan on doing on a fun German Fieldgrey "Umbau-wagon" cab 12....... should I live that long...

Try it..... you might like it....... and let us know how you make out.... consider making a web site devoted to that conversion.....

Bob C.

Bob Carriere · #12 03-08-06, 04:35

...a technical question......

GM made a standard tranny van in the 70s which had an hydaulic clutch system..... and the clutch slave was mounted on the right side CMP style.......

I actually saw the bell housing in a guys garage on the floor... not sure what size engine would mate to the bellhousing 6 or saml V8..... of course he moved away shortly afetr scrapping all hi 2 1/2 ton truck parts..... I beleive he said ti could be used on the 302 from the M35 Deucy.....

any body else know...... this could open up a whole new potential conversion set up.... need to find an old GM parts man.....

Bob C.

Barry Churcher · #13 04-08-06, 01:51

Hi Bob
I did more than my share of clutches in the 70's but I don't remember that van set up

but I have to check my name tag every day to know who I am. I know the 60's and 70's trucks up to 3 ton with the 250 and 292 used a left side mechanical clutch. I'm with you when you say it would make a good conversion.. I have been watching for a 292 for years to put in a CMP. A 63 or 64 Chev powerglide is real short and I think they would work well. 64 was the last year for a rear tranny pump also so you could push start them. In 65 they went to a longer tranny and no rear pump. I would love to make one of these up to drive to CC? or BB? Who cares if it's not 100% original driveline. At least you would be showing up with something you drove there. My opinion on this changed after spendng time with Preston Isac and his diesel LAAT. When he pulled out of Portsmouth heading for the ferry to France in 94 and actually accelerated down the street towing a Bofors, Brian and I stood there in awe.
Cheers,
Barry

Hanno Spoelstra · #14 04-08-06, 10:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry Churcher
I have been watching for a 292 for years to put in a CMP. A 63 or 64 Chev powerglide is real short and I think they would work well. 64 was the last year for a rear tranny pump also so you could push start them. In 65 they went to a longer tranny and no rear pump. I would love to make one of these up to drive to CC? or BB? Who cares if it's not 100% original driveline. At least you would be showing up with something you drove there. My opinion on this changed after spendng time with Preston Isac and his diesel LAAT. When he pulled out of Portsmouth heading for the ferry to France in 94 and actually accelerated down the street towing a Bofors, Brian and I stood there in awe.

Hi Barry,

What do you think about a GMC 270 engine in a CMP?

I hear you guys in North America talking about all sorts of engines which are really rare in Europe, but I realise the 270 cu.in. engine might be more readily available here because of the abundance of GMC CCKW trucks.

Hanno

Bob Carriere · #15 05-08-06, 04:11

Hi Hanno

Bolt wise they would all fit the bellhousing.....GMC 228 or 248 or 270.... however....HOWEVER..... they are a tad bit longer and something has to move......

Rad clearance would become critical.... I had a 248 in my cab 11 and the fan was about 1/2 inch...for Hanno 12.5mm.... but the rear end tranny connection were stock......

I beleive the Caldwell had a 270 in a modified HUP and the engine cover had been removed for rear clearance.

BUt like Barry I feel a fun to drive auto cab 11/12 might be the trick..... I will consult some local rural mechanics for the elusive short 3 speed auto used by GM in Vans....coupled to a good large six it could be fun to drive and might only necessitate minor adaptation........ I am not to keen on butchering up a CMP frame and beleive me if I need to remove or relocate crossmembers I will carefully remove and re-drill to re- install....... the trcik is the short space between the tranny and the T case.

I tried to keep my original 1959 4 speed "fully synchro" with the 261 engine..... but the modern 59 tranny was almost 4 inches longer than the undersized original 216 tranny leaving no room to connect to the T case...

I did meet a gentlemen in one of Oshawa's show that apparently had a modified C60 that he was driving around everywhere claiming that the mods (not sure if it included and auto tranny) made the whole difference....... anybody knows who I am referring to?????

BooBee

Barry Churcher · #16 05-08-06, 16:10

Beste Hanno
The 270 for a CMP would make one heck of a machine. As Bob says they are a little longer but the rad can be moved ahead easily like in the C60X. After driving Stefan's armoured truck in those parades I was really impressed with the way a 270 moves along. The C15TA is quite a heavy beast and the 270 performs real well. There is lots of power for the hills (in Holland)

Unfortunately there is not such a ready supply of the 270 in Canada. Dirk took Brian and I to one of the dealers in Holland and they had containers of take out engines. Brian actually got one for his armoured truck. Like Bob I don't want to hack up a good truck but modifications aren't forever. Can you imagine being able to drive to a CMP event in Canada without worrying about killing your engine? I know lots of MLUers will crap all over us for even having such subversive ideas and would be calling us "Hot Rodders" but a look back in history will show proof that the Canadians were known as the hot rodders of WW2. Look at the Jeep modifications used by the Canadians. Even look at the Aussie and Kiwi mods to vehicles.
Cheers
Barry

Paul Singleton · #17 07-08-06, 19:42

The last new installation of the GM 270 engine in Canada was I think in 1962 in transit buses. The bus model is TGH3102 and here is a picture, the bus on the left would have a 270 engine.

http://www.caw4304.ca/images/16b.jpg

cletrac (RIP) · #18 08-08-06, 03:04

You might as well go to the 302 as the 270. They're the same basic block so the swap would be the same and the results better. I'll stick with the 216 though, but taller rear end gears out of a civilian truck might be nice. If I had a Ford I'd use a Merc crank and pistons and camshaft and have 255 cubes and 130 hp. That'd probably get 'er boiling that much faster!!

Bob Carriere · #19 08-08-06, 03:12

Cletrac

Are you saying the 270 and 302 are interchangeable and would both bolt up to a 216 bellhousing......????

Interesting since 270 are so rare and 302 are somewhat easier to find........ I find that a good source for old sixes are school buses form the late 60 and 70s.... some of them are parked as storage sheds and still have the full engine tranny set ups.......

Keep me posted....

Bob C.

J Caldwell · #20 08-08-06, 04:45

We had a 292 in our HUP when we bought it. Lots of power but alot of the floor , crossmember etc.. had been cut out to make clearences. The HUP is getting re engined with a 235, which seems to be the best all around replacement for Chev CMP's. If it comes right down to doing a complete engine swap for making a CMP a regular driver I would have to say go Diesel all the way.
By the way the 292 would not have bolted up to a 216 bellhousing, therefore had a different bellhousing in place. Seems like there are lots of 235's around as they where a common civvy engine from the 40's and 50's, and all parts still available for rebuilds. ALot less hassle for a 216 engine swap, can't see why you'd look for anything else. Just my 2 cents

Hanno Spoelstra · #21 08-08-06, 10:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry Churcher
The 270 for a CMP would make one heck of a machine. As Bob says they are a little longer but the rad can be moved ahead easily like in the C60X. After driving Stefan's armoured truck in those parades I was really impressed with the way a 270 moves along. The C15TA is quite a heavy beast and the 270 performs real well. There is lots of power for the hills (in Holland) Unfortunately there is not such a ready supply of the 270 in Canada. Dirk took Brian and I to one of the dealers in Holland and they had containers of take out engines. Brian actually got one for his armoured truck. Like Bob I don't want to hack up a good truck but modifications aren't forever. Can you imagine being able to drive to a CMP event in Canada without worrying about killing your engine? I know lots of MLUers will crap all over us for even having such subversive ideas and would be calling us "Hot Rodders" but a look back in history will show proof that the Canadians were known as the hot rodders of WW2. Look at the Jeep modifications used by the Canadians. Even look at the Aussie and Kiwi mods to vehicles.

Hallo Barry,

Thanks for your thoughts. Being used to a V8, I couldn't live with that puny 216 cid in a Chev, so I'd go for the 270 cid engine. Like you say, as long as the conversion isn't irreversible there is no real harm done.

Re. Canadians being the hot rodders of WW2, read the following snippet from Gregg's "Blueprint for Victory" p.151: "Kuno Stockelbach, a civilian employee of Ford Motor Company of Canada, supervised all vehicle assembly and major overhaul facilities for the British 8th, 9th and 10th Armies in North Africa and the Middle East from the Fall of 1941 until the end of the Sicilian Campaign.
Kuno attempted to keep the inventory list down by putting Canadian 95 h.p. Ford V8 engines in anything that had room under the hood. All Universal Carriers were re-engined, at the first refit, with the larger powerplant, as were English Ford products such as the W.O.T. transport series. Engines did not last long in the North African desert; Universal Carrier engines were changed every 2,000-3,000 miles and transport vehicles after 10,000 miles. The enthusiast should not despair if he finds a British-built Armoured Car equipped with a Canadian Ford V8 engine. This was the standard refitting procedure in North Africa."

Met vriendelijke groet,
Hanno