Front axle.....success at last.....

[Bob Carriere]

Be patient this willbe a long string of pictures on the elusive type "B" front axle.

Back 3 years ago when I stripped down my cab 11 I found a type"B" long axle and a type "A" short axle in the innards of my front axle. Obviuusly, in a previous life, someone broke the axle joint and replaced with what was available.... a later type "A" U-joint.

My quest has been ever since to find another matching early type "B" joint to rebuild my axle......

3 years later after tearing down 4 axles I finally found the "HOLY GRAIL" ..... a good functional type "B"......

Some of you will remember this frame that Chris begath and bequeathed to Stew who passed it on to me..... in the process someone got the engine.... someone got the tranny,,,etc. etc. and I got the frame and axles..... one of many recoveries.

Stay tuned it gets better....

Well the Son of a Gun was an early cab 11, alledgedly a gun tractor later disproved...... but good donor of parts......

[Bob Carriere]

Credits are due for Stew for providing me the parts..... and for the Caldwell who provided me with a short shaft assembly where I learned how to take it apart..... unfortunetely water had done some irrepairable damage to the ball bearing of the joint..... but none the less I have learned the basic concept form this first teardown.

So this weekend with the help of Grant Bowker we tore down the cast iron cap on a spare axle to find shit.... another type "A"... but now smarter I can tell a type "B" form type "A" by kust looking under the hub cap......

Finally we wheeled the spare frame to the front of the barn and started to dismantle.... carefully so as not to ruin any spare parts.....

[Bob Carriere]

So what is the big deal.....

Never coudl figure out why the GM wiseguys called the early type "B" and the newer type "A"....... but here are the differences.

It is obvious that the early type was very close tolerances and vewry labour intensive....... I am lead to beleive that a similar change occurred to the Dodge 4x4 front axles to save time and precious resources....

No doubt in my mind that the type "B" is a much smoother U-joint and just as strong....... the beauty of the design being that between left and right side the only difference is the lenght of the removable inner axle stub...... quite ingenious.

Have a look at the following pictures.....

The type "A" which you are mostlikely to encounter is the one with the simple massive yokes......

The type "B" is the more elaborate all enclosed cup.

[Bob Carriere]

I use to think that the only way to tell waht was inside the axle was to muddle through all that old grease and lub.... but now I know better.

On any axle..... Furd or Chev....pop off the 3 screws to the hub cap and clean out the ned of the axle shaft.....

The elusive Type "B" has a larger machined hole in the center. Wheras the type "A" has a machined recess that held the part in the lathe when machined... the type "B" has a machined hoel all the way down the axle shaft..... the visible opening is larger and if you feel around the hole you will find a recessed set screw about an inch inside.... you have to remove the cotter pin to see the depth of the hole....

[Bob Carriere]

In it greasy glory....

[Bob Carriere]

Removing the axle pins can somethimes be very easy.... in most cases it is a bitch.....

First of all you need a puller which in all probability you will need to make out of scrap steel...... see the manual MB-C1 for basic concept. The pin needs to have a 1/2 fine trhread bolt.... had to buy 20 to get one..... anyways mine had beendamaged by some turkey who forced a 1/2 inch coarse bolt in there..... Grant gave me a hand re tapping the thread sufficienctly to get the proper bolt in here........ they you huff, puff, hammer and grunt until it is out...... if you have any wear like mine did they develope ridges that are really bullet proof..... but I succeeded......

See the next series of pictures.....

[Bob Carriere]

Being short of supplies on a Sunday I welded the end of a cutoff fine thread bolt to a coarse bolt....... the first time it broke off so I grinded a 45 degree off each bolt and rewelded.... held together fine......

....and it worked.... don't look for this tool at Walmart.....

[Bob Carriere]

....and the pin is out......

[Bob Carriere]

.... in all it's resplendant greasy gooryness...... a perfect type "B" joint...... to be washed cleaned carressed and relubed.......

Did anyone say you had to be crqazy to be in this obessive hobby....

[Bob Carriere]

.... inside the egg cup is a special thrust washer also serves a mean of slinging grease out of the hopening...... see how this one is now worn out as two seperate washers.......

Credit goes to Dirk who in his last shipment included some NOS replacements.... he obviously knew I would need them......

The end...............

..............or is it.... now I can rebuild my front axle like new....

Thanks for watching.... if I can be of any assistance just shot the questions.....

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
.... inside the egg cup is a special thrust washer also serves a mean of slinging grease out of the hopening...... see how this one is now worn out as two seperate washers.......

Credit goes to Dirk who in his last shipment included some NOS replacements.... he obviously knew I would need them......

The end...............

..............or is it.... now I can rebuild my front axle like new....

Thanks for watching.... if I can be of any assistance just shot the questions.....

Great description from a dirty(Handed) old man....

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
Have a look at the following pictures.....

The type "A" which you are mostlikely to encounter is the one with the simple massive yokes......

The type "B" is the more elaborate all enclosed cup.

The Ford people call the Type "A" the Bendix-Weiss Joint, and the Type "B" the Rzeppa. There was a third joint very similar to the Bendix called the "Tracta". All three styles of joint were also used in Jeeps, Dodge VC+WCs and Marmon-Herringtons. (In fact, the Rzeppa still continues to be used in the front end of many 4wds today, but for some reason is now called a Birfield joint.)
While the Rzeppa is the more time consuming to manufacture, it can be used at higher angles than either the Bendix-Weiss or Tracta, and has better wear properties as it shares the torque over a wider area, but is more particular about lubrication. (Hint: remove the set screw in the end of the stub axle and fit a grease nipple and lube with hi-temp lithium grease. There is a spring loaded pin on the inner end of this threaded hole, and centrifugal force will spread the grease into the ball channels.)

Good stuff, Bob!

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks Tony for the background information.....

....I like the idea of fitting a grease fitting in that centre hole......

The way the hole is drilled it may be a problem to properly sit a fitting....... either I use a removable extension or have the hole enlarged to accommodate the 6 sided edge fot he grease fitting.... getting grease directly inside that joint seems liek the way to go if it is to last.

Suggestions and comments or personal experiences with this particular joint are welcomed....

Bob C.

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
(In fact, the Rzeppa still continues to be used in the front end of many 4wds today, but for some reason is now called a Birfield joint.)

Probably because no-one could pronounce Rzeppa. The correct pronounciation is "Cheppa" I seem to remember.

The other thing of note is what a beautiful piece of engineering they are to look at.

You can also pretend to be Captain Queeg once you disassemble one.

One of the less notable uses was on the Morris 1100 - I can still remember being able to identify an old one of those on hearing it alone when one went around a corner... K-klunka-clicka-klunka, (then being enveloped in a cloud of blue smoke).

Originally posted by Keith Webb
Probably because no-one could pronounce Rzeppa. The correct pronounciation is "Cheppa" I seem to remember.

We just leave out the "R".

One of the less notable uses was on the Morris 1100 - I can still remember being able to identify an old one of those on hearing it alone when one went around a corner... K-klunka-clicka-klunka, (then being enveloped in a cloud of blue smoke).

Well, the Mini first and then every other FWD transverse A and B series engined car followed by the rest of the world turning their engines sideways.

In fact the joints were stunningly reliable until the sealing boot failed allowing the grey lithium grease out and dirt and grit in to do its job. Even so the drive spider, balls and outer cup didn't wear, it was the bronze cage that became slack and allowed your balls (if you pardon the expression) to click from one face to the other.

At the time the cages were a standard spare, replacement would realise tight fitting and well controlled balls (if you pardon the expression again) rendering the joint as new.

Done a few in my time. . . . . . . . . . . . .

R.

[Bob Carriere]

.... are truly knowledgable about "balls"..... if you pardon the expression.....

Now tell me.... how do you dismantle the greasy little suckers.

I have managed to figer out that the wired retaining screws come out releasing a snap ring...... and I have managed to remove the set screw front the axle cavity..... then what????/

Mind you the one I am learning on may be rusted..... according to the diagrams .. behind that set screw should be a plunger and spring of some sort that holds a cap inside the cup with a central nipple..... here we go again....pardon the expression.....

I have tried rotating the inner cup enough to release the ballbearings (no excuse) from the race but can't seem to turn enough without removing or releasing that cap inside.....

Pray tell... what is the secret oh wise one of circular objects???

BooBee

[Grant Bowker]

MB-F1 describes the process for dis-assembly as (paraphrased):

1. remove the 3 tiddly retainer screws and the axle shaft
2. the axle shaft pilot pin, your "central nipple", (let's not get into whatever happened to left and right niples) "can usually be removed by merely tapping the bell of the joint on on a wooden block. Grease can cause suction that makes removal difficult without cleaning the entire joint". They don't say whether the pilot is removed inboard or outboard. And they don't tell the poor working stiff what to do if "merely tapping" fails to dislodge the pilot.
3. after removing the pilot pin, the inner race is pushed down so a ball can be removed, repeat until all balls have been removed
4. turn the inner race upside down and remove the race pilot (half round cover to the race)
5. turn the cage so that the elongated holes are positioned to permit cage and race to be lifted from the outer race
6. a little more fiddling should separate cage and inner race

I haven't yet figured out how to post their diagrams, but hard copy will follow (Saturday ?).

It is interesting that the GM book only describes dis-assembly of the Bendix joint and that the Ford book only gives the process for Rzeppa. This is, by coincidence or otherwise, the same thing that occurs in the AEDB Design Record where all Fords are listed as having Rzeppa joints and all GM Bendix joints.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Grant

I got confused after step 2...... will wait for your able assistance.....

....and we can test the theory of Furd being equipped with the better R-Zeppa...... we have two Furd front axles to check out....now that we are smarter we only need to remove the cast iron hub cap......

See you on the weekend......call me first so I can organize a 12 hour pass from the one who must be obeyed ....... She is not working this weekend!!!!

Lots of other things to talk about....

Bob

[Max Hedges]

Nice series of photos of your repair job. Not being a person to brag I just thought I'd post you a photo of what I have in my shed still all wrapped up.

To remove the knig pins I used a three quarter inch drive socket that fits over the pins and then put the bolt through the socket to remove it.

Max

[Bob Carriere]

.....and I am not sure if it is from my tears or plain salivating.... when one considers that they were all shipped from Ontario..
It's not fair!!!!!

Only in Australia


Bob

[Max Hedges]

bob on our next rip to your part of the world I will call in and counsel you and bring a box of tissues.

Max only in Australia

[Bob Carriere]

.... I would love just to stare into your eyes!!!!!!

Seriously if you are ever near Ottawa I would love to meet you and so would a bunch of other ROTs....... and get you filled up with poutine and beaver tails......

Bob C.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
.... I would love just to stare into your eyes!!!!!!

Bob C.

Careful, Bob. Those eyes can hypnotise sheep at 100yds.

[Max Hedges]

If you dare to stare into Max's eyes you had better get practicing as you know the troll doll that Max has tried to pass off as Keith that is really a replica of Max that someone gave to him a few years ago as they thought it reminded them of him. So if you can get your hands on one of these you won't be so shocked when you see them in real life. I won't tell you what they are but there are other remarkable likeness between Max and the troll dol besides those eyes. If you need a picture to remind you what a troll doll is I can get it to you.

Kathy

[Bob Carriere]

.... to those sheep once they are hynothysed????/ for shame........Sorry Kathy...... am I to assume that he has hynothysed you as well????

How the heck did we get into this line of discussion when we are suppose to be CMPers......

Bob

[Bob Carriere]

Here are some pictures of a.... finally.... disassembled Rzeppa joint.

With a lot of help from Grant Bowker who found some detailed instrcution in a Ford manual..... there seems to be some indication that Ford favored the Rzeppa and GM went to the Bendix a lot sooner....

Any ways.... the trick is to cleanup the hole at the very end of the axle where the big nut goes on...... behind the gunk is a set screw seen as a small black dot on the pictures..... once that is removed a skiiny screw driver can push out the center pin and the spring plunger that is behind it... only then can you rotate the cage and bearing enough for the... in this case rusted... ball bearing can be removed than the cage comes apart....

I am totally facinated by the fine machining and tight tolerances in these old parts..... no wonder they went for a simpler Bendix or tatra design.....

So here are the pictures....

[Bob Carriere]

In the previous picture the top joint is a 4 7/8 inch joint and that is the good one I salvaged of the axle from Stew/Chris......

The bottom one is from an assembly from Dan/Jeff Caldwell... unfortunately rusted but a good subject to learn from......

The rusted joint is a 4 5/16 joint used very early in production according to the Ford manual..... possibly found wanting for strenght.

The Ford manual refers to two(?) other large sizes the last one being 6 inches.....

They are very intricate pieces of mechanical marvel......

here is a close up of the central pin and spring plunger held by Grant...... that central pin actually fits a tightly machined hole in the end of the central half of the axle........

We have since disassembled the long axle shaft side and also found it on excellent shape.

Plans are to take the two good joints apart... one at a time so as not to mix the matched parts.... clean and relube with Moly grease... reassemble and store wrapped in grenn plastic bags until ready to insert into the axle tube of the cab 11.....

If I canbe of any help to soemone doing the same please ask..... I have other pictures that I can share.....

Bob
Bob

[RHClarke]

Bob,

Great work on solving that puzzle. Grant has proven himself to be a great assistant. There won't be a single part of your truck that has not been examined, taken apart, cleaned/upgraded and reassembled. I continue to be amazed at your curiosity and really look forward to seeing two rolling frames this fall!