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#1
05-09-06, 15:38
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More Blue on Blue.....
With these kinds of "Friendly "fire attacks it is no wonder that sniveling,two faced,running dog Canadian polititions are calling for a return of our troops from Afghanistan..
God bless our troops and give 'em hell...Put them with their 70 Virgins... I can think of nothing worse than to be with 70 Virgins for eternity..70 ex-virgins after I got there would be worth going.. Les Perreaux, Canadian Press Published: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 Article tools Printer friendly Font: * * * * PANJWAII, Afghanistan (CP) - The sun lifted into a clear sky with the usual haze of dust at 5:30 a.m. Monday while two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolts swept down the narrow Arghandab River valley, blasting away at supposed Taliban positions. A young corporal from Newfoundland glanced toward the heavens, noting one aircraft's sickening low-pitched moan as it shattered the ground with a 10-second burst of about 300 shells the size of a pop cans. It's far from the rat-tat-tat usually associated with a machine-gun. "It's like the noise a whale makes when it runs into a ship," said Cpl. J. R. Smith from Mount Pearl, N.L. An hour later, the soldiers found out more than 30 Canadian soldiers, including Pte. Mark Graham who died, were the unintended targets at the bottom of that strafing run. A giant Chinook helicopter was needed to ferry out all the wounded. Immediate anger gave way to resigned frustration. Smith's unit was mounted up for an attack but the soldiers knew they were likely going to cool their heels for a while as their commanders dealt with the wounded and came up with a new plan. Smith described friendly fire as "the worst thing that can happen." "It hits us hard. But in a mission like this with the terrain as tough as it is, close air support is a huge factor. It gets their heads down so we can make our moves," Smith said. Other soldiers had questions and remembered the friendly fire incident four years ago when a U.S. plane bombed Canadians on a training exercise, killing four of them. "It's not forgotten for me, and it's not forgotten for the public, either," said Cpl. Pablo Mckelvey of Montreal. "They will want answers. We have so much equipment to prevent this sort of thing, all kinds of protective measures. I can't understand why an incident like that can still happen." Canadian commanders say all but five of the wounded are expected to return to duty. In the previous 48 hours, the A-10s had fired thousands of shells trying to dislodge dug-in Taliban fighters. Canadian mortars and artillery, other U.S. and NATO warplanes and helicopter gunships also thundered down on the rebel positions. The first attempt at a ground assault from the south on Sunday was pushed back by fierce Taliban resistance. Four Canadian soldiers died and six others were wounded. While those deaths seemed to stiffen the resolve of Canadian solders, many seemed more rattled by the friendly fire. "It's enough that we have to deal with the threat coming from the outside and a very well-known enemy," said McKelvey. "You never expect you're just going to be around your carrier and you're going to get friendly fired. You don't expect it. You never expect it." Taliban forces continued to probe for Canadian weaknesses Monday, setting up ambushes and getting blasted in a couple attempts to sneak behind Canadian lines. No Canadians were hurt and several Taliban were killed in the action.
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Alex Blair :remember :support :drunk: 
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#2
05-09-06, 17:40
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Re: More Blue on Blue.....
Quote:
Friendly fire is an unfortunate attribute of warfare. Ever since the first projectile from a Ballista fell short, or an urn full of Greek Fire was accidentally overturned, warriors have suffered at the hands of friend and foe alike. No doubt the Liberal lick-spittle appeasers of Canada will attempt to turn this tragic event into political gain, so the Troopies in Afghanistan can be twice wounded by friendly fire...once in 'Stan and again back home. The veracity of the reporter is suspect as he partially writes in the present tense as if he were there as it happened. Is Canada imbedding reporters now as the Americans do? I doubt the reporter was there. He reports the A-10 fired a "10 second burst". That is extremely unlikely as that would require a rebuilding of the Gau/8 gatling gun. Anyway, I shouldn't divert attention from the tragedy here. I couldn't imagine a more demoralizing way of watching a fellow soldier die. All attempts must be made to ensure casualties from friendly fire never happen again. I'm proud of what our servicemen and women are doing in Afghanistan and the Canadian public must remember that if politicians want Canada to be a player on the international stage, then unfortunately some of our soldiers will be killed in the service of peace.  CHIMO!
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Last edited by sapper740; 06-09-06 at 07:46.
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#3
05-09-06, 19:25
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Only the best.....are good enough.....
Canadian Olympic Committee Mourns Death of Mark Graham
TORONTO, Sept. 5 /CNW/ - The Canadian Olympic Committee (COC) extends its sincere condolences to the family of Mark Graham, the Canadian soldier and Olympian who was killed in Afghanistan yesterday after being mistakenly hit by fire from a U.S. warplane. "We are extremely saddened to learn of the passing of Mark Graham," said COC President Michael Chambers. "As an Olympian and as a Private in the military, Mark dedicated his life to representing Canada. He will forever be remembered as a courageous patriot and an outstanding athlete. He will be dearly missed." Graham, 33, was a member of Canada's 4 x 400-metre relay team at the 1992 Olympic Games. Alongside teammates Byron Goodwin, Mark Jackson, Freddie Williams and Anthony Wilson, Graham helped lead Canada to a 13th-place finish in Barcelona. "Mark Graham was a man of great character who was an excellent role model during his athletic career," said Jackson. "While this is an extremely difficult time for his family and friends, we can take comfort in knowing that Mark took great pride in serving his country and that he died doing what he felt was right. We are all deeply proud of him and all that he accomplished." Following the 1992 Olympic Games, Graham attended the University of Nebraska on a track and field scholarship before continuing his collegiate career at Kent State University in Ohio. Among his notable achievements, Graham represented Canada at the 1994 Commonwealth Games and captured a silver medal in the 400 metres during both the 1993 and 1994 Canadian Track and Field Championships. He retired from athletics in 1994 due to injuries. The Canadian Olympic Committee is a national, private, not-for-profit organization committed to sport excellence. It is responsible for all aspects of Canada's involvement in the Olympic movement, including Canada's participation in the Olympic and Pan American Games and a wide variety of programs that promote the Olympic Movement in Canada through cultural and educational means. For more information, see the COC website: www.olympic.ca. For further information: Eric Michalko, Manager, Media Relations, Canadian Olympic Committee, Phone: (416) 324-4146, Cell: (416) 528-6742, Email: emichalko@olympic.ca
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Alex Blair :remember :support :drunk:
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#4
06-09-06, 02:18
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Friendly Fire
Upon reading all the comments about friendly fire in Afghanistan where a few have been killed and wounded my memory goes back to the Battle of Normandy in August 1944.
I was in the 4th Canadian Armoured Division, an assistant to an Arty FOO. During our offensive out of Caen towards the Falaise pocket we were bombed twice with friendly fire. On 8 August the Canadian and Polish troops suffered 300 killed and wounded with huge amounts of equipment destroyed. by American bombers. Then on 14 August this act was repeated by the RAF & RCAF heavy bombers and this caused another 400 casualties. In both instances we still had to carry on the attack despite those with minor wounds and suffereing the agonies of dysentry plus the extreme heat and the alkaline dust which stung our skin and just about closed our eyes. We didn't have any experts on trauma with us in those days, we just had to keep on fighting. So what's the big deal on to-day's episodes.? Herb Danter
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#5
08-09-06, 03:16
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Sapper and Herb both make good points. Friendly fire is a fact of life whether it is in a battle area or civilian life. My first experience was while waiting outside the church in Bancroft for choir practice. We were throwing stones in the creek and one of the female members bounced a big boulder off my head. (explains a lot doesn't it). I know this is a silly analogy but "shit happens". The Americans didn't do it on purpose now as they didn't in WW2. My uncle was killed in WW2 because of the mistake of another RCAF sergeant pilot. We should mourn the loss of one of our soldiers but not attach blame to anyone other than the enemy. Without the enemy we wouldn't be there.
We have met the enemy and he is us. Pogo Cheers, Barry
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Every twenty minute job is one broken bolt away from a three day ordeal.
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#6
08-09-06, 20:33
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Your dating yourself....
Barry......
Who the h*** remembers POGO........???? I was a great fan of the highly caricaturistic ( make my own words) comic strip...... ...who remenber the hounds that looked like Nixon... .... or "deck the ball of Boston Charley..... fa lalala... and kalamazoo.... we have got to stop spending so much time on this Non sensical section of the Forum and get back to our CMPs...... who rebuilding what these days...... BooBee
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada
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#7
08-09-06, 20:49
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Re: Your dating yourself....
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Look at the top of the Page...This is the Sergeants Mess..the exact place for this discussion... So screw off and be nice.... Barry is babbling on from the blow to the head from the thrown rock,from days gone by..
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Alex Blair :remember :support :drunk:
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#8
09-09-06, 00:44
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More Blue on Blue
A good point Alex. If asking the readers of this forum to remember the hundreds of our Comrades that were killed by friendly fire in WW II, Korea War and so on is considered nonsensical then I withdraw future comments from this forum. It is too bad that the uninformed person who suggested that this is all nonsense wasn't in WW II or The Korean War or the ensuing Peace Keeping duties and he would look at this in a different perspective ( I HOPE)
Over & OUT
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#9
09-09-06, 01:21
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Check Firing!
Quote:
I am downright certain that Bob did not mean to denegrate, or insult anyone. The problem with email is that it is too open to interpretation and an individual's sense of humour does not always translate well in print. When compared to the stripping and assembly of CMP parts, most of what is said in the Sgt's Mess can in my mind be interpreted as nonsense. I've contributed a lot of said nonsense in this section and got some over reactions from some who chose to interpret my comments in a fashion contrary to my intent. The point is not to get overly sensitive. Yes we discuss things that may not be as important to others, but that is what the mess is for, and the ability to express one's opinion is what our service personnel fought and are fighting for. I think you would find Bob to be an upstanding and fun person to meet. To judge anyone by a single posting to a forum does no one any good. Bob is man enough to defend himself, but I thought that I would add my opinion to the conversation. Support Our Troops!
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RHC Why is it that when you have the $$, you don't have the time, and when you have the time you don't have the $$?
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#11
09-09-06, 02:24
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BooBee
Glad someone rembers Pogo. You are correct about spending time on this part of the forum but this is the only place I rightfully belong. I am in the process of about 5 restorations but am not actively working on anything so I must contribute someplace.  I am afraid I am becoming what Dirk calls " a paper guy". I can talk a good restoration but spend more time on the computer than I do in the shop. MLU has become a religion and it MUST be checked each evening when I get home. If Geoff were to kick me off I would probably get a vehicle finished. Thanks Alex for coming to my defence. That blow left more than a scar on my scalp I'm afraid. Clarkey, (I bet you hate that), I agree with what you say about putting something in print and it having a different meaning than you intended. How many times have I read one of my posts at a later date and thought what the Hell was I talking about.  Cheers, Barry
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Every twenty minute job is one broken bolt away from a three day ordeal.
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#12
09-09-06, 03:53
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What a "mess" I got myself in......
Now I know why I usually stay off the sergant's mess......
My apologies to anyone who I may have offended....... No I am not a veteran...... but a proud Canadian I am and proud of our soldiers...past, present and future..... I must have been having a bad day at the office and was disappointed that there was not more traffic in what "I" call the exilarating part of the forum that deals with greasy CMPs.... Like Barry MLU has become a religion or as I call it an addiction... like a druggy looking for a fix I turn to MLU in cheer moments of terror at work.... it is my escape from reality. I find great solice when I find someone like Barry that remembers POGO..... with the young people I work with these days they think I am referrring to a weiner on a stick!!!!! Again my apologies...... I will return to my greasy things now..... BooBee
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada
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#13
09-09-06, 03:56
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Re: Your dating yourself....
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And FYI, it brings tears to my eyes every time one of our boys comes home in a coffin, whether due to enemy OR friendly fire. I'm afraid Herb called it right, Bob old bean, and this is his forum as much as it is yours. In the case of this topic, he speaks with experience. No more need be said. Here Endeth The Lesson.
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SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS :remember :support
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#14
09-09-06, 12:09
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Re: Re: Your dating yourself....
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And I am proud to call Bob Carrier a gentleman and my friend..He just talks funny... This forum is the best thing that has happened to all of us and has brought us all together...and it sure would be boring if we all agreed with everything that was posted... Bob has been collecting,restoring and been involved with Rusty old military trucks since he was a kid and has been around collecting and saving these historical vehicles for ever and we are all glad that people like Bob are so dedicated to the craft.. Bob ,keep posting and keep those pictures coming.. Over and Out..
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Alex Blair :remember :support :drunk:
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#15
12-09-06, 20:58
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re. Blue on Blue
I'm away from the forums for ages, when I come back nothing's changed.
Anyone that's served has seen their friends suffer from 'self inflicted' injuries, whether from accidents or as in this case, from 'friendly fire'. It happens sure, but it shouldn't, especially with the electronic aids available today. However it happens, it hurts, but you take the risk when you sign up. Politicians will always milk any situation to suit themselves, if it gets too much for you, vote them out. On another matter : Herb, my wife's cousin (Bob Dennett) was with the RCA of 4th Canadian Armoured, 15th Field Regt. He spoke about the two bombings, but blamed them both on the USAAF!!
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Wear a poppy - support our Veterans and the Royal British Legion A wasted youth is better by far than a wise and productive old age!! (Meatloaf)
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#16
16-09-06, 15:26
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PAUL KORING
From Saturday's Globe and Mail WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force A-10 Warthog pilot who strafed Canadian troops in Afghanistan, killing one and wounding dozens, mistakenly shot a blazing garbage fire just lit by the Canadians, after being told to target a fire at a suspected Taliban position. The Warthog pilot apparently mistook the Canadian fire for the intended target, according to an officer familiar with early reports arising from the accident. The Canadian fire appeared almost directly in line with his course. While some details of the sequence of events leading to the deadly "friendly fire" incident remain unknown, a general picture of the accident is emerging, according to senior military officers who have seen "after-action" reports. Those officers are not party to the official investigation and stress that their knowledge is limited. In this scenario, ill-fated coincidence, ambiguities and failures to achieve 100-per-cent confidence in target identification before opening fire all appear to have contributed to a very short burst of fatal cannon fire. The pilot realized the error almost immediately and released the trigger button, but the seven-barrel Gatling gun in the nose of the A-10 Warthog had already torn through the encampment of Canadian troops. The pair of A-10s — tough, ugly jets designed especially for close air support — had been travelling just before 5:30 a.m. on Sept. 4, under the guidance of a forward air controller, who was directing them to a target believed to be just north of the Arghandab River. It was an area close to where four Canadians had been killed in fierce fighting the previous day. The pilots were likely unaware of the Canadian encampment. Although forward ground controllers calling in air strikes close to "friendly" positions train — as do pilots of warplanes — to be extremely careful and precise, finding distinguishing marks that usefully identify a target can be challenging. A fire would rarely be used as the sole distinguishing element. But a fire, especially if it seemed to be the only one in the area at the time of the strike, coupled with terrain features, could be extremely useful, especially in the drab sameness of rural Afghanistan. The Canadians' position, on a hillside south of the dry Arghandab riverbed, was directly in front of the A-10 headed for the target, perhaps only a few thousands metres further on, according to one officer. "The Canadians did nothing wrong," said another, suggesting that ambiguous information about the fire may have caused confusion in the cockpit. Already, accounts from several wounded Canadians tend to corroborate the mistakenly targeted fire scenario that senior officers say seems to have played a significant role in the accident. "The guys were told to clean up the area, get rid of garbage, any evidence of any messages or anything that needed to be burned. I guess the fire was lit [and then] the next thing I know I heard this cracking noise, I felt something in my foot and my leg and my shoulder, I heard one of the young lads yelling, 'I've been hit.' At first I thought somebody had thrown something in the garbage by accident, maybe a grenade," Sergeant Kym Cousineau told CBC's As It Happens. "If his target was a fire, we had a fire on our site, too," he added, referring to the pilot. Another of those wounded, Major Matthew Sprague, 39, said "the pilot knew he made a mistake right away," and stopped firing. "If the rounds had kept coming for another five or six seconds, I'd hate to think how many more of us would be" injured or killed, he told The Canadian Press from a military hospital in Germany. A single second's worth of fire from the aircraft's gun is able to spew 50 thumb-sized, high-explosive bullets, each of which is powerful enough to rip through armour plate. The pilot of the A-10, officially known as Thunderbolts but universally referred to as Warthogs, has been taken off flight duties while the formal investigation into the friendly fire proceeds. Both regular and reserve pilots serve with the 81st Expeditionary Fighter Squadron, which has made several tours of duty in Afghanistan. Its current deployment ends this month when it is due to return to Spangdahlem Air Base in Germany. Pentagon spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Todd Vician said he does not know when the investigation will conclude. The probe is certain to examine what targeting information was given to the pilots by the forward air controllers who are supposed to have their eyes on the intended target as the warplanes make their bombing or strafing run. They will also examine why the pilot apparently failed to make a 100-per-cent identification before opening fire. "It's explainable, if not excusable," said retired Canadian major-general Lewis MacKenzie, who is familiar with both the doctrine and the realities of confusion in battle. The stresses and split-second judgment inherent in combat, combined with the speed of jet aircraft, make close air support among the most demanding of tasks. "Even an extremely well-trained and experienced pilot might make that mistake," Mr. MacKenzie said. NATO's commander in southern Afghanistan, Canadian Brigadier-General David Fraser: "We do have procedures, we do have communications, we do have training and tactics and techniques and procedures to mitigate the risk, but we can't reduce those risks to zero." Close air support remains vital to Canadian troops. With no warplanes or attack helicopters of their own in Afghanistan, the Canadian troops rely on U.S. attack aircraft. "We're very dependant on these people," Sgt. Cousineau said. "These planes probably saved a lot of our lives the day prior by subjecting the insurgents [to] our overhead cover and fire; we rely on them 100 per cent." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home
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#17
16-09-06, 23:59
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I have just read your entry regarding the touchy subject of "Friendly Fire" (?) and I was very interested to note that your wife's cousin Bob Dennett was in the 15th Field. RCA
I was in the 23rd Field RCA. We were the two field artillery regiments in the 4th Div. as per what the "establishment" called for.They (15th field) had the towed guns an we (23rd field) had the self propelled guns (a.k.a. Sextons). I do not know Bob and I wonder if he lives in around the Toronto area, if he does I could contact him or even if doesn't abide around here I could still contact him. I belong to the Limber Gunners Association which is affiliated with the 7th Toronto Regiment RCA and we service and parade a restored WW II and Korean War 25 pdr field artillery gun/howitzer for the Regiment so I am very keen in spreading "the Gospel" about our Association. Please refer to our web site at :http://www.geocities.com/lga25ubique/index.html This will give you an idea of who we are and what we do to help keep our valuable military history alive. Cheers Herb
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#18
17-09-06, 04:19
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My reply to Dave Cox
Hello again Dave:
I neglected to direct my earlier reply to your attention Dave, but I hope you are able to figure out who it came from. If you are a member of the Royal British Legion I want to tell you about a visit I had with a Branch of the RBL back in 2004. My group, which was the Queens Own Rifles Association was on its way back home and on the way back to London from Normandie we were invited by this certain Branch (I regret I can't remember the number) to stop and have lunch with them. Now I want to say what a terrific lunch they served us. So my hat's off to the RBL for their comradeship. I am a 57 year member of the Royal Canadian Legion, my present branch is N0. 258 Highland Creek Ontario Branch, ( a Borough of the City of Toronto ) Cheers again Herb Danter
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#19
18-09-06, 02:07
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Stoning Barry Churcher
Barry gets stoned waiting for choir practise-good caption ?? -maybe the lady that threw the stone had heard him sing was just stating her opinion on his singing and was trying to avoid more of the same-and it probably worked -Greg A.
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