Defrocked Priest in South Alberta Regt.

[John McGillivray]

I was in a book store yesterday and looked through Donald Graves’ new book “Century of Service: The History of the South Alberta Light Horse”. In it was a photo of the South Alberta Regt. HQ vehicles in Bergen-op-Zoom, Netherlands on the 29th of Oct., 1944. This was a photo which I have never seen before. In it can be clearly seen a defrocked Priest along with the other Regt. HQ Vehicles.

I went back and check NAC PA-142088 (shown below) which is dated the 31st of October and the defrocked Priest can be seen in that photo also, covered by a tarp.

This must be one of the vehicles retained by 4th Cdn Armoured Div. for use as cargo carriers to replenish the tanks with ammo and fuel.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

John,

That piccie is on page 235 of Graves' SOUTH ALBERTAS. A great pic! Interestingly, it was just around the corner from that where I had the rear wheel of my bicycle respoked in the fall of 1975....

Ref the Priest, a number were kept in service with the armoured corps regiments as command & control vehicles (as opposed to OP tanks). There are other pics out there as well which document this.

[John McGillivray]

Thanks Geoff,

A few years ago the subject of the defrocked priests in 4CAD came up on the AFV New db. I forgot about them being used as command vehicles. Someone had stated that 4CAD also kept 10 defrocked Priests to use as cargo carriers. I believe that the photo below shows two of the cargo carrier versions. Note the cribbing added around the rear deck.

John

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
...I believe that the photo below shows two of the cargo carrier versions. Note the cribbing added around the rear deck.

That was probably just for carrying the officers' lawn chairs and monthly booze rations...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
A few years ago the subject of the defrocked priests in 4CAD came up on the AFV New db. I forgot about them being used as command vehicles. Someone had stated that 4CAD also kept 10 defrocked Priests to use as cargo carriers. I believe that the photo below shows two of the cargo carrier versions.

That's PA-131627, as identified in Photos needed:

See how easy it can be...
http://data4.collectionscanada.ca/ne...e.html&r=9&f=G

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
I went back and check NAC PA-142088 (shown below) which is dated the 31st of October and the defrocked Priest can be seen in that photo also, covered by a tarp.

Also note the Ram Command/O.P. tank in the centre of the square.

H.

[wim sikkelbein]

To Hanno, Geoff, John and all the others,

Are there more pictures out there of these defrocked command and control or cargo versions of the priest vehicle?
Were all of these used by the south alberta’s?

Wim

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi there

The history of the 4th Canadian Armoured Brigade mentions a 'Battle Lorry Group' as part of Bde HQ. It consisted of 10 unfrocked Priests that that they had 'failed to turn in to Ordnance" after using them at Falaise.

They were used as armoured ammunition and supply vehicles and as casevac vehicles.

No pictures, unfortunately.

Steve

[wim sikkelbein]

@ steve : thank you for the information.

Does anyone know what modifications were used on these priest tanks? interior layout etc.

Wim

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by wim sikkelbein
Does anyone know what modifications were used on these priest tanks? interior layout etc.

Aside from obviously ripping out the gun and all the ammunition bins, I really can't say... but I'll be at the Kangaroo reunion in Toronto in a couple of weeks (11 Nov) and will endeavour to find out (if Bill Miller doesn't come up with the information sooner ).

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by wim sikkelbein
Does anyone know what modifications were used on these priest tanks? interior layout etc.

Wim, I know of the modifications carried out to the Priest Kangaroos in Italy - see Appendix F for the list of the work completed by 45 South African Workshops during the conversion to Kangaroo. The Priests converted in Normandy by Army Workshops Detachment 'Kangaroo' were most likely converted along largely the same lines.

Hanno

[wim sikkelbein]

thanks for the info guys

Wim

[wim sikkelbein]

any new info come along since last time

[John McGillivray]

The only other information that I could find is from page 146 of the SAR regimental history “South Albertas”

“B Squadron had not yet got under way when Division informed Jefferson at 1320 that such an attack must be completed "today" and offered to send another infantry company to St. Lambert "if necessary." Apparently Wotherspoon accepted the offer as, within about forty minutes, a scratch company of Links (two platoons from C and one from D Company) under the command of Major R.F. Willson with about fifty-five all ranks) arrived at Hill 117 [the location of the SAR RHQ] in TCVs and an APC."

…and…

“Swatty decided to retain Willson's company of Links on 117 because he needed infantry, both for defence and to guard the swelling number of prisoners that Dave Currie was sending back from St. Lambert.”

So the SAR may have acquired their defrocked Priest (APC) on the 19th of August, 1944.

[wim sikkelbein]

John thanks for your reply.

Now a more specific question:
who can tell me more about the fording kit attached to the above vehicle: size of the plates, construction, how was it fixed to the priest?

[John McGillivray]

There is a reference to the Battle Lorry Group, using defrocked Priests in the Regimental history of the Canadian Grenadier Guards published in 1965. (p282)

“Without delay the top of the hill, Point 262, was occupied. Here the scene was of the grimmest. Scores of corpses were scattered all about. The road was blocked with derelict vehicles. Several hundred wounded and some seven hundred loosely guarded prisoners were lying in an open field. The Poles, isolated for three days cried with relief, and mingling with our crews settled down to an international "brew up" and a square meal. Short of everything but courage, they had latterly held their ground by using weapons and ammunition taken from the Germans. These shortages were relieved by the arrival of Capt. Geo. Sherwood with five Priests of our Battle Lorry Group, which delivered food, ammunition and petrol. Turning about they loaded and evacuated the wounded, our new M.O. Capt. S. A. MacDonald assisting. Ten times that night the Priests made the round trip.”

This was the time when CGG broke through to “Maczuga” to relieve the Polish Division on the 21st of Aug. 1944

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thanks for the reference, John!

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by wim sikkelbein
who can tell me more about the fording kit attached to the above vehicle: size of the plates, construction, how was it fixed to the priest?

Wim, a partial answer can be found in the thread Kangaroos? where I posted a drawing of the Priest with additional armour plus deep wading kit.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[wim sikkelbein]

hanno thank you

[Alex van de Wetering]

It seems this defrocked Priest was a beloved photo-subject. The following shots are from the Bergen op Zoom city archives.

Alex

Source: http://www.markiezenhof.nl

[Alex van de Wetering]

And the RAM OP Hanno was referring to..

Source: http://www.markiezenhof.nl

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

It seems this defrocked Priest was a beloved photo-subject. The following shots are from the Bergen op Zoom city archives.

Hi Alex;

Reference your third image of 'Priest' Kangaroo T214613. On 29 August 1944, 'Priest' Kangaroo - WD No. S214613 - was issued to: 10 Cdn Inf Bde (4 Cdn Armd Div) - from: E Sqn, 25 Cdn Armd Del Regt (2 Cdn Corps).

Cheers

[wim sikkelbein]

Whilst browsing trough the website that alex mentioned, I found a picture of what appears to be a ford lynx with the number F496358
Does anybody know which unit this vehicle belonged to?

[Alex van de Wetering]

Wim,


The archives show two or three scout cars parked on the same "Grote markt". One seems to show a "45", which can also be seen on some of the Chev's as well. Given Mark's reaction about the defrocked Priest. The Humbers could be part of the Canadian Armoured Corps, 29th Armoured Reconnaissance Reg., 4th Canadian Armoured Division.

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

Here is one of the other (?) Humbers, with the "45" just behind the german POW. The Stuarts also have a "45" on the front armour.

Is that a Canadian 10cwt trailer in the background?

Alex

Source: http://www.markiezenhof.nl

[John McGillivray]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

It seems this defrocked Priest was a beloved photo-subject. The following shots are from the Bergen op Zoom city archives.

Alex

Source: http://www.markiezenhof.nl

Now that is not very nice.

I went to the site that Alex posted.

http://www.markiezenhof.nl/

I clicked on the word “English” at the bottom of the page and came to a page with only one English word on it.

“dummy”
http://www.markiezenhof.nl/content/view/12/41/lang,en/

Is this what the Dutch think of those who speak English?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Wim,


The archives show two or three scout cars parked on the same "Grote markt". One seems to show a "45", which can also be seen on some of the Chev's as well. Given Mark's reaction about the defrocked Priest. The Humbers could be part of the Canadian Armoured Corps, 29th Armoured Reconnaissance Reg., 4th Canadian Armoured Division.

Alex

Hi Alex;

The vehicles parked on the 'Grote markt', do indeed belong to the 29th Canadian Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (The South Alberta Regiment), C.A.C. (RHQ Troop and Recce Troop), of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division.

Cheers

[wim sikkelbein]

sorry chaps i looked at that picture on a other computer and it's not an lynx but a humber

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

And the RAM OP Hanno was referring to..

Hotel De Draak is still there, the Ram OP isn´t. . .

By the way, De Draak (The Dragon) is the oldest hotel in the Netherlands. How old? Well, it was one of only two buildings which survived the great fire of 1397. . .

Pic with my phone taken last July when I was there and happened to recall that location. Although the town square is quite large, all the medieval roads leading to it are narrow. It must have taken quite some effort to get all those vehicles there, and I can´t see the reason why, other than to show that one has taken posession of the town.

H.

[Jordan Baker]

I believe this photo is also of the same line up from the first photo. Except that the RAM OP has now moved up to be in line with the other tanks and the jeeps have moved.