F15A with 6-pdr

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

This is a shot from the same film as on the carrier forum, but now a ford F15A with a 6-pounder , they stayed a few days at a farm not far from our home before they moved on.

Hendrik


Dirk, now you understand

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hendrik, interesting photo! The pic below shows a C15A towing 6-pdr AT gun of the 48th Highlanders in Italy, 1944. The 48th antitank platoon had used CMP 15cwt trucks to tow their guns and provide all-weather protection for the crews, all through the Italian campaign, and later in Holland. Maybe your pic depicts a 48th Highlanders truck as well?

Regards,
Hanno (who now wants a 6-pdr to tow behind his F15A as well. . .)

Originally Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)

Here's another pic of a 15cwt pulling a 6 pdr in Italy. I know for a fact the 48th Highlanders used them even into Holland, where they received ONE T-16, which they hated for its lack of crew space and weather protection. This veh sports the hand-painted number 68, which if a TAC sign, is the Carleton & Yorks.

The pic isn't much clearer, but maybe you can discern a little bit more of the box; all I was thinking about was using a 216 to pull all that weight!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Ya beat me to it, Hanno, but thanks! Yes, the 48th Antitank Platoon stayed with their 15cwts... they got exactly one T-16 in Holland and hated the bloody thing.

[Phil Waterman]

Curious what does a 6 pounder weigh I’m still hunting one for my Patter 12 C60L

I can understand wanting to tow it with a smaller truck for maneuverability but any thing over 25 mph would be really interesting to stop. With a 101" wheel base any angle on the towed load at speed would be deadly.

Little bit like the tandem Jeeps for pulling 105s.

[alleramilitaria]

try towing a 17lb gun with a 15CWT truck

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Hello Hanno, it is a truck from the Loyal Edmononton Regiment, I had a something with the 48th Highlanders, I have played the Tenor drums in "The 48th Higlanders of Holland Pipes and drums"we were also in Normandy 2004 with the band and the Dodge WC 51

Hendrik

[Phil Waterman]

Originally posted by alleramilitaria
try towing a 17lb gun with a 15CWT truck

I wonder which foot do you put the toe tag to make it easier to identify the body after the accident? Weight difference 9500 pounds vs how much?

Did either the 6 or 17 pounder have brakes controlled by the towing vehicle or surge brakes?

We've had a couple of strange accidents in our local MV club with people towing artillery. One involving a 57mm behind a CCKW one of the trailing arms came unlocked and swung out which changed the geometry so the gun swung out to the side and tried to pass the truck. The other was Jeep towing 37mm was rear ended by a car at the drive up window at McDonalds. The muzzle of the put and interesting dent in the hood of the offending vehicle.

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Originally posted by Phil Waterman
I wonder which foot do you put the toe tag to make it easier to identify the body after the accident? Weight difference 9500 pounds vs how much?

Did either the 6 or 17 pounder have brakes controlled by the towing vehicle or surge brakes?

Niether the 6 or 17 pounder have brakes controlled by th towing vehicle, but at Arnhem sept 1944 the 6 pdr was towed by the Jeep and the 17 pdr by a 3/4 tonner, the Morris Commercial, this last was confirmed at Hartenstein this year by a vet, he told me he was "happy" to see a Carrier, because they pulled out a 3/4 tonner and a 17 pounder out of a crashed Hamilcar with a carrier to release the heavily wounded and dead pilots

Hendrik

[alleramilitaria]

the morris that i have was made just for towing the 17lb gun. it could not have been a fun job!!!! at arnherm one problem that was found out is that all the carriers there were lightened bu removing all the un-needed items, like tow hooks and eyeletts!!!!!

that way there was no way to pull guns out of trouble spots when the morris or jeep was killed. kinda silly

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Did the 17-pounder airportable version have electric brakes?

I know that various Morris-Commercial tractors were converted to airportable form (as discussed previously) but according to a photo I have seen in the Airborne Museum archives at least one Ford? 15-cwt was converted to airportable and trialled in a Hamilcar. I would have thought that the CMP would have been more practical but they had the MCC conversions to hand as of end of 1943 say.

I must go to Aldershot in the new year and see what I can find out about the CMP trials.

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Originally posted by alleramilitaria
the morris that i have was made just for towing the 17lb gun. it could not have been a fun job!!!! at arnherm one problem that was found out is that all the carriers there were lightened bu removing all the un-needed items, like tow hooks and eyeletts!!!!!

that way there was no way to pull guns out of trouble spots when the morris or jeep was killed. kinda silly

I don't know, but I am sure he was telling the truth, have never seen a vet so happy with a vehicle and then telling his story and ther were the attachments to ancher the carrier in the plane, when you are in trouble you can attach a cable anywhere at the carrier.

Hendrik

[Gordon Yeo]

Hendrik
I found the picture of your pipeband very interseting. In 2003 I went to France with the Massed Pipeband that played at the opening of the Juno Beach Museum. Your Drum-Major Hank asked the bus company he drives for to be one of our drivers for the tour. One of the bands Drum-Majors luggage went missing and he had no uniform for the first parade. Hank had his uniform brought down in time and our Drum-Major wore Hanks 48th Highlanders uniform till his uniform caught up with him. We all thought that was a real great thing Hank did and made a great story for the trip.
Gord

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Herewith another shot from the same F15A.

Hendrik

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Phil Waterman
I can understand wanting to tow it with a smaller truck for maneuverability but any thing over 25 mph would be really interesting to stop. With a 101" wheel base any angle on the towed load at speed would be deadly.

The Data Book of Wheeled Vehicles: Army Transport 1939-1945 lists the following maximum recommended trailed weights in tons for the F15A:
- normal roads: 3
- hilly roads: 3
- cross country: 1
The figures for the C15A are the same, except for normal roads: 4
Weight of the 6-pdr AT gun is 1,140 kg / 2,520 lb, so that should not pose a problem on roads.

The figures for the Ford and Chevrolet FGT are:
- normal roads: 4
- hilly roads: 3
- cross country: 3
Total weight in action for the 17-pdr AT gun is 2100 kg, not a problem for the FGT.

And in those days 20 mph was considered the maximum, convoys travelled at even less speed (source).

[Mike K]

Try towing a 17 pounder A/T gun with a Land Rover ....

Some years ago the South Aust. military vehicle club were lucky enough to be donated a 17 pounder gun , a club member, Andrew T , towed it home with his 2A Landie , along public roads ! Average Speed was about 10 MPH .

Many years ago , a South Aust. collector ( We all know him , he goes to Corowa every year ) drove home a Staghound on one of the Freeways in Adelaide . Discovered on a farm , it hadn't moved for many years . It was got in driveable shape and driven home ........ A tyre blew out in the process . The cops even stopped for a look see , and let him go ...... Only in South Aust. !

It's the muddy water they drink ..... from the salt drain called the Murray River , causes mental problems .

Mike

[Mike K]

Back in 1977 , the VMVC took on a public relations task , we supplied some vehicles for display at some of the larger shopping complexes around Melbourne , Eastland and Northland and Doncaster etc.

We had the 25 pounder to move around , the only towing appliance we had on hand was a Fordson WOA2 Heavy Utility with mechanical brakes ...... !

Saturday morning was the usual big move day . I recall following a weird procession along busy Saturday morning Melbourne roads , among cars zipping in and out - GPA , Jeep , WOA2 with 25 pounder in tow . If only I had a camera with me .

Mike

[Dave Page]

Hi,
tuppence from my own experience, albeit limited, I had absolutely no problem towing a 6Lber behind a Guy Ant 15cwt GS. The Ant has mechanical/cable brakes which, if set-up properly work very well. Anyway, 30mph was no problem in the truck. One day I even towed a 25lber limber (which has overide brakes) then a 6lber behind that, with an Indian 741B in the rear of the truck. That represents quite a load but I went up and over one steep hill easily , I was doing 30mph at the bottom and 35mph going over the crest. Stopping took a little longer, as you would expect but not to a scary degree. I never got a picture but it sure was a sight.
Carriers, on the other hand pose a very different towing problem. They pivot on the inner track, and will jack-knife against the trails in a heartbeat if the turn is made too sharp.
Cheers,
Dave

[Gunner]

Hanno and Phil (et al.):

The 17 pounders were fitted with electrical brakes, however, I'm still not sure if it was at factory or if it was a modification ordered later in life. If a mod, I would really like to know when it was put in place. Yippee! More research!

If my memory serves me well, all the 17 pounders I have examined have the fitting for the electrical brakes on the left hand trail leg. Not all have the whole kit installed, mine for example. One monument in a village near my home has the full kit including all the cables and the actuators.

As for the towing of guns with undersized vehicles I quote my own post from 26 Aug:

Hi All:

I thought I'd weigh in here as I'm a bit confused by some of the posts.

If I understand correctly, some 15 CWT were fitted as 17 Pounder tractors?

I question this based on 31 years practical experience in the artillery... the 15 CWT would make a poor tractor for the 17 pounder as you would end up with a combination where the gun almost outweighs the tractor, the brakes on the 15 CWT would be taxed with stopping the load, there would be little room for a full detachment and all the stores and ammunition.

Stranger things have happened but I suspect that a poor 15 CWT would near collapse from the load it would be asked to handle.

Six or seven strapping big Gunners @ 300 lbs apiece (soldier and kit) = 2100 lbs.

Gun Stores = 1000 lbs (tools, parts, cam nets, etc)

Ammunition (basic load of 50 rds mixed) = 2500 lbs

Tongue weight of 17 Pounder = 100 lbs

Vehicles stores = 300 lbs

So far, just rough order calculations mean we are asking the 15 CWT to haul just over 6000 lbs or damn near 60 CWT!

I haven't thought through the added complication of adding in the Trailer No. 27 (Limber) to this equation.

I certainly wouldn't want to ride in it (if I could find room!)

Cheers! Mike

I have followed up on this since and have learned that indeed 15 CWT were used as 17 pounder tractors but were intended only for airborne/light troops in limited circumstances. I stand by my earlier assertions that for routine use a gun tractor needs to have the capacity for the whole detachment, their kit, all the gun's stores and a basic load of ammunition. As enthusiasts we frequently fall victim to the LCF (look cool factor) and want to haul artillery with inadequate vehicles. Be safe guys... the police will never fault you for towing a small gun with a big truck but the reverse is asking for a disaster.

As for the six pounder and 15 CWT combo it doesn't meet the math as above:

Five strapping big Gunners @ 300 lbs apiece (soldier and kit) = 1500 lbs.

Gun Stores = 400 lbs (tools, parts, cam nets, etc)

Ammunition (basic load of 50 rds mixed) = 500 lbs

Tongue weight of 6 Pounder = 60 lbs

Vehicles stores = 300 lbs

So far, just rough order calculations mean we are asking the 15 CWT to haul just under 2800 lbs so, as Hanno noted, the specs for 15 CWT indicate that it can haul a six pounder (and the historical evidence is clear that they in fact did) but when you add in all the other weights above the bare bones gun weight, you can see that the trucks were grossly overloaded... kudos to their designers but could the brakes handle the load? At WWII speeds of 20 mph... sure... in a parade at 3-5 mph sure, but we always haul ours to and from events with a bigger truck or a modern one with good brakes.

As Phil has noted, safety chains may not be period but must be used. Muzzles lights, reflectors, turn signals and extra ratchet straps on trail latches all add to the safety factor. Forgive me for lecturing but in my 31 years with the Guns I've seen or been in just about every kind of accident you can have while towing artillery; rollovers, jack knives, snapped wheel spindles, seperated trail legs, muzzles through idiots who follow too close, you name it. Even in parades, we leave the safety chains on as I would never want a loose cannon swerving into the crowd!

My 2 cents!

Mike

[Rob Beale]

towing the limber and 6 pdr at the National Rally at Hamilton in 1985.

[Dave Page]

Hi Rob,
well done! I either forget the camera or my hands are too dirty. And let's not discuss the 'O' (light truck) sticker on the windscreen.
Cheers,
Dave

[Rob Beale]

and was that when you needed a heavy trade licence for anything over 2 ton gross laden weight?

Rob

[Phil Waterman]

Originally posted by Gunner
Hanno and Phil (et al.):

...good brakes.

As Phil has noted, safety chains may not be period but must be used. Muzzles lights, reflectors, turn signals and extra ratchet straps on trail latches all add to the safety factor. Forgive me for lecturing but in my 31 years with the Guns I've seen or been in just about every kind of accident you can have while towing artillery; rollovers, jack knives, snapped wheel spindles, seperated trail legs, muzzles through idiots who follow too close, you name it. Even in parades, we leave the safety chains on as I would never want a loose cannon swerving into the crowd!

Mike it is interesting how these threads tie together. It seems that running up on towed guns has, is, will always be a problem. This thread ties to one Hanno started about The Official History of New Zealand in the Second World War http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...&threadid=7615 as I was listening to the history I came across the description of the problems of running up on towed guns in black out convoy conditions.

Cheers Phil

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Dave Page
tuppence from my own experience, albeit limited, I had absolutely no problem towing a 6Lber behind a Guy Ant 15cwt GS. The Ant has mechanical/cable brakes which, if set-up properly work very well. Anyway, 30mph was no problem in the truck. One day I even towed a 25lber limber (which has overide brakes) then a 6lber behind that, with an Indian 741B in the rear of the truck. That represents quite a load but I went up and over one steep hill easily , I was doing 30mph at the bottom and 35mph going over the crest. Stopping took a little longer, as you would expect but not to a scary degree. I never got a picture but it sure was a sight.

Dave, for your reference, I quote the the Data Book of Wheeled Vehicles: Army Transport 1939-1945. It lists the following maximum recommended trailed weights in tons for the Guy Ant 15-cwt:
- normal roads: 3
- hilly roads: 2
- cross country: 1

And for Guy Quad Ant:
- normal roads: N.R.
- hilly roads: N.R.
- cross country: N.R.
where, interestingly, N.R. stands for "Not Reccommended" (!)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Regarding 15-cwt Anti Tank Tractors, also see the threads

Cab 11 C15 and 2A1 body

Ford Cab 13 ATT info requested