Cab 11 C15 and 2A1 body

[cletrac (RIP)]

I decided to start another thread dedicated to my C15. It's the early model with no vents. Something else that's different is the seats don't fold. I'm lucky to have another non-folding seat already.
We've decided on the other thread that it would have been manufactured in June 1940 based on the 40-1-713 census number.

[cletrac (RIP)]

I assumed that a 2B1 body would be suitable until I checked out Military Vehicle Profiles. That's where this composite pic info came from. I can't imagine one of these wood bodies would have survived so I'm looking for info on same.
In the picture I included the 2H1 construction bit to get opinions as to whether the 2A1 would use similar techniques.

[cletrac (RIP)]

This is a C15A with the 2A1 body. There's no tie brace between the fenders in front of the grille so I guess I'm not missing one on mine. There's also no tow rings.
In the previous post, what would the abbreviations on the models stand for?

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's the only one I could find of the Chev 4x2 with the 2A1. The tarp is a bonus.

[cletrac (RIP)]

This is a pretty detailed shot of the body on a Ford from Blueprint for Victory. It looks like they didn't carry a spare tire on these models but they'd have the run flat tires this early in the war.

[cletrac (RIP)]

This is the only rear view I could find from Blueprint for Victory. It must be a Cab 12 with the roof hatch. Does anybody have any measurements for the body? Or does anybody have access to a body where they could get some detailed pix?

On closer inspection this looks like an all metal 2B1 body.

[cletrac (RIP)]

This is the only CMP I've seen where the large hole at the end of the frame is hidden behind the spring hangers.

Somebody pointed out that the spring hangers have been moved back to increase the wheelbase. I looked and the driveshaft has been lengthened too. This explains why the big holes are behind the hangers. This means the overloads weren't original.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by cletrac
Does anybody have any measurements for the body?

David,

As the 2A1 body is very similar to the contemporary British design, I'd use Mike Kelly's 15-cwt GS body drawings as a starting point for basic dimensions and details: http://www.geocities.com/vk3cz/GSBody.html

Good luck, looks like an exciting project!

Hanno

[cletrac (RIP)]

I'm not sure where I got this one. On the other pix the side panels are made from two wide boards and on this one they're made from several narrow boards.

[Nick Bullock]

Hi dave
great to see your pictures of the c15, 11 cab. we have this one on the yard waiting for some attention... it could eb a long wait, the job list seems to grow and the time with spanner in hand gets shorter every year! Maybe that having kids for you!
the better of these trucks is an SM2002 vehicle that I've known for some 25 years, I originally tracked it down for a school friend and at that time it had a n original steel body on it, it later passed through many hands and bits went missing along the way! Later we came across the rusty c15, very rusty but absolutley complete, clearing away the undergrowth the original wooden body sides and tailgate appeared... So we have all the meatl work and patterns for most of the other bits... I keep meaning to have a go at it, but am having a look at a 10cwt trailer first. Any idea what timber was originally usedfor these vehicle bodies? Oh one truck has an original tow bar too..
kind regards
nick

tow bar and spring

c15

rusty...

[cletrac (RIP)]

Nick, thanks for the pix. I see both trucks have the vents and tie bar between the fenders. Do the seats fold?
In the excerpt I posted from Gregg's book it states that the longitudinal sills and the cross sills were hardwood and the rest was softwood. Being Canadian production the hardwood would be oak and the softwood would be fir. Pine would be too soft a wood for this purpose.
Were the sides on your body made from two wide boards or four narrow boards?
If you can find the time could you take some measurements for me? It would be greatly appreciated.

[Nick Bullock]

originally found in blackpool uk as a tow truck

[Nick Bullock]

I still have the panels originally fitted to the truck, a previous owner attempted the restoration using cab panels from a c8, none of it actually fits!!!
kind regards
nick

[mike mckinley]

Originally posted by cletrac
This is the only CMP I've seen where the large hole at the end of the frame is hidden behind the spring hangers.

hi cletrac

i noticed some major differences between your 11 and my 12...pic attached. what's with the helper springs?? i don't recall ever seeing them on the smaller trucks? cheers!! mike

[Colin R]

Have only glanced through this thread but would the British type be suitable, the reason I ask is that I had been trying to hunt down the original manufacturers of the British wooden rear and found out that one company was based down the road from my place of work. I followed the story of the company and found out as with most companies it had been bought and sold at various times until finally bought and split up, the company which did this has its HQ in London and I was tempted in contacting them to see if any original plans still existed? I might just try and get my self to finally follow it through.

Just remembered the original Firm who made the bodies - Duple, located in a place called 'The Hyde' off Edgware road NW (London)

[Pete Ashby]

This particular truck has been discussed before on this forum, the owners used to be from the Bristol area in 2001/2 but haven't seen it around since then. I believe the rear body is original to the truck

Pete

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

That's serial number 18421000169, delivered under Demand S/M 2002. Here's an official shot that I have of another.

The truck with the boys is Michel Casaubon's early C15...I have monochrome and colour shots if it tha he e mailed me.

The model is an early CMP chev. C15 , a 15421-M-GS-1 model fitted with a type 2A1 bolted woody body. Production beginning in april 1940 My model is before september 1940 because it has no ventilation holes on the radiator sides.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I think I have the original of this photo.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Sorry it is cropped!

[cletrac (RIP)]

Nick, I read somewhere that the inner wheelwells on the 15 cwts had to be different because the 4x2s would turn sharper so need more clearance. I don't know if the 8 cwts were this way too. Most of the cab panels should be the same.
On another thread I posted a pic of the floor panels in my C8 with a different treadplate pattern on the passenger side panel. Well, the C15 has exactly the same mix of panels. Check yours and see if they're like that too. C8 data plate
Colin, checking them out sounds like a good idea.

I have the floor panels off of three Cab 11 Chevs and they're all the same. The panel under the seats and the drivers side panel are dot and dash treadplate and the passengers side plate is all dashes.

[Nick Bullock]

Hi DAVE

I've not really manage to work out quite whats amiss witht he truck here.. a previous owner rebuilt the cab (or most of it) with the cab from a C8.. most of it looks ok, but the wings have been lengthened and the archbars have also been modified (extended) with bits of angle iron to reach the step brackets. Looking at the front of the truck the pannels again don't seem right the radiator appature isn't square but tapers as thought he C8 arch bars are in some way different... having said that its all fixed properly at the front end.... any way the secong truck should give us a set of arch bars that are of the correct dimensions.

kind regards

nick

arch bar extension

[Nick Bullock]

Dave
yes the cab floor panels are different, must have been like that from new, this particular truck has never been taken apart
kind regards
nick

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I apologise if this is of no use, as I am no expert as you know. I remembered some information from the DND papers relating to the early 1940 # 11 Cabs:

..A letter sent on May 8th 1940 to “Mr. C.S. Finkle, Canadian Mechanization Depot, General Motors Building, Southampton, England” by J.A. Lane, Export Manager at G.M. of Canada, Oshawa said that they had experienced a few assembly problems with the first run of 15 cwt. vehicles, model “84-21". He wished to draw attention to these with a view to assisting Finkle “in your initial production”. Variations in the Arch Bar resulted in misalignment of the front fender and fender support holes. The source of Windshield and Roof Panel Header Strips had made a mistake in drilling outer holes, cab spot welding as received from source was not acceptable, and required re-welding in the plant, and there was an increase in production of the clearance between the brake pedal shaft and bushing.

He also confirmed that on the first 143 Model 84-20 8 cwt. S.K.D., the holes for the Floor Plate in the Frame Side Rails were drilled one inch too far forward, and they were going to send a jig to enable the holes to be properly located

As I said I am sorry if this is of no relevance but I thought that it does illustrate that there were variations in standards in the early days, and parts had to be made to fit. I am pretty certain that GM of C were building cabs up from Ford-supplied panels at the time and in return GM supplied axles and transfer cases. However it all proved horribly complicated expecially for the exported vehicles so the respective companies produced their own cabs, and as we know Ford obtained their own cases and axles, and CKD was dropped in favour of SKD.

[cletrac (RIP)]

David Hayward, you figured that census # 40-1-713 would have been produced in June. Gregg states that 15000 CMPs were manufactured by Ford and Chev in 1940. That's 9 months production so there were 1666 per month. Even if the first months were at half that rate, wouldn't that make 40-1-713 an April truck or am I missing something?
What were the demand #s of the first few months production and how many were ordered or do you have that info?
Thanks for all the input.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have written about production commencement and that achieved before, based on D.N.D. papers, plus those of the Southern Railway company in respect of the C.M.D. in Southampton. However I don't have Hanno's research skills so have had to look up my papers again.

According to Dr Gregg, the C.M.D. Plant was ready and in production by 12 May 1940 . Dr. Gregg has also alleged that production of 15-cwt. 4 x 2 trucks started in April 1940, followed by 8-cwt. 4 x 2 May 1940, 30-cwt. 4 x 4 and 3-ton/60-cwt. 4 x 4 also in May, the Field Artillery Tractors in June, then the 15-cwt. 4 x 4 in September 1940 . This is disputed though fromthe following evidence. Confirmation of the actual first day of production has however been the result of considerable research. Clues have been forthcoming from a Department of National Defence file , although even that file is not conclusive. The sum total of evidence is as follows. A ‘backorder and shortages’ list provided a list of parts requested by a Memorandum of 5 April 1940, shipped from what appears to have been Ford in Windsor on 12 April: this was for ‘174 15-cwt. C.K.D.’ units, and was sent to ‘Canmilitry, C/o General Motors, Southampton’ and consisted of various Ford and possibly G.M. parts. It appears as though these may well have been the very first D.N.D.-pattern units assembled for export, namely Ford F.15 4 x 2 G.S. Trucks. There were also two Memoranda sent by Ford of Canada to London on 27 March and then a revised version on 11 April , relating to ‘Decking Military Cabs’ and ‘Assembly of Military Cabs From S.K.D. Stock’, though the parts number suggests that these were F.30S trucks. This has led to the suggestion that the first shipments were of a batch of Ford F.15 trucks followed by F.30S lorries and that 174 of the F.15 trucks were C.K.D. with the having been built up to test the overseas assembly procedures although was it also used as a trial for the S.K.D. units that followed: see below .

Ford in Windsor sent Memoranda 28 March and 2 April to Dagenham and Southampton by air mail concerning deficiencies in parts and improved items for the first 108 shipped units, revealed as one truck selected at random had been built-up from the components, which seems to confirm that the 175th shipment was indeed the first S.K.D. unit. Further, Ford had shipped the afore-mentioned ‘Service parts’ for 440 15-cwt. Trucks, which had erred on the side of the assemblers in assessing potential losses in transit and assembly. On 12 April another Memorandum was sent to various parties including Finkle and Ellis referring to items on back order for Dagenham for 440 15-cwt. [F.15] ‘Semi K.D. jobs’ and ‘1 set up’: the latter was presumably the C.K.D. truck that was re-assembled in Windsor . A list of parts that may have been sent out on 3 April [date not clear] shows that they were for Ford 3-ton 6 x 4; F.A.T; 158-inch wheelbase 3-Ton and 30-cwt. 4 x 4, 8-cwt. 4 x 2 and 15-cwt. 4 x 2 C.M.P. units. These would have been destined for Dagenham and Southampton. This is the most conclusive evidence known of the first types of Fords that could have been assembled in Southampton, and at some stage all the Chevrolet equivalents would have been handled by the C.M.D.

The next clue is a letter dated 17 April sent to ‘Mr. C.S. Finkle, Canadian Mechanization Depot, G.M. Building, Southampton, England’ by J.A. Lane, the Export Manager at G.M. of Canada, Oshawa advising that they had experienced a few assembly problems with the first run of 15-cwt. vehicles, model ‘84-21’, which was the Chevrolet C.15 4 x 2 D.N.D.-pattern truck

A further letter of 8 May by Lane confirmed that on the first 143 Chevrolet Model 84-20 8-cwt. S.K.D. trucks the holes for the Floor Plate in the Frame Side Rails were drilled one inch too far forward, and they were going to send a jig to enable the holes to be properly located. These were the very early Chevrolet C.8 8-cwt. 4 x 2 trucks which in theory went into production in May, though Conveyor Line Saddle drawings on file for the 8-cwt and 15-cwt. 4 x 2 [straight front axle and the rear axle] and the ‘Quad’ [front and rear axles] chassis were dated 4 April 1940 and marked inter alia, ‘type used final assembly Windsor’. These were to support the axles on these earliest 4 x 2 trucks, and the Field Artillery Tractor with its additional front differential, being attached to the outside edge of the chain type conveyor as used in Southampton.


A Telegram sent from C.M.H.Q. London to National Defence H.Q. [DEFENSOR] in Ottawa on 4 June 1940 addressed to Colonel Carr referred to various Ford military assembly items, and stated that there were shortages of certain items. Certain crated items had not arrived, and this had caused problems; had they been sent or not? The request was to discontinue short shipping to adjust errors or over shipments as had been done with speedometers, wheel wrenches and steering drag links. Distribution assembly operations to other plants necessitated complete groups of components. They were by then assembling, they said, 8-, 15- and 30-cwt. trucks and Ford 6 x 4s

10 June 1940 telegram: Interestingly, 149 Ford 8-cwt. front axles were sent 18 May and 58 to Southampton, which gives some idea of the number of this type assembled. There was also evidence of 100 [?] reworked floor plates sent Southampton 18 May for ‘Quad units’, i.e. Ford F.-G.T. Gun Tractors though Chevrolet units would have used the same parts.

In a letter of 31 July 1940 from Colonel the Brigadier N.O. Carr to the D.M.S. ‘the British’ had made a further enquiry regarding the possible production of 39,200 additional vehicles. Consequently Carr queried as to whether the tooling contemplated for 200 vehicles per day was sufficient and the motor industry should review the situation to see whether bottlenecks at that production rate could be relieved with advantage, though they might not be able to do so until tooling for 100 units/day had advanced beyond the state at that time. Carr thought that the aim was 100 units/day but under pressure 125 could be achieved. However, spare parts demand for large orders shortly beforehand was such that the 100 units/day completed vehicles could only be maintained if the outside limit of 125 sets of components could also be maintained As this would preclude elasticity or buffer in production, he suggested that the companies decide whether they could create some reserve capacity greater than then contemplated. Before the increase had been mooted, Colonel Butler had had a discussion with a Mr. C.E. Doheney, Mechanical Transport Section, of the D.M.S. on 12 July, with presumably H.J. Stevenson of the D.M.A.’s department in attendance. 7,000 4 x 2 15-cwt. trucks and 3,000 4 x 4 30-cwt. 4 x 4 trucks had been ordered, equipped with run flat tyres. All trucks were to be provided with equipment as listed, and service and instructions books, etc. were to be supplied by each Company in addition. The next day Stevenson wrote to each company giving them advance information on the British orders which were subject to confirmation by the D.M.S. : this afforded them little time to prepare for this addition to Canadian demands. However, the order which was ostensibly for U.K. delivery was changed days later so that just 12,000 vehicles were to be shipped to the U.K., with 1,970 to Egypt [probably Alexandria], and the balance to be delivered to India

24 August 1940: Letter: Transport Controller to Colonel D.E. Dewar: Ford of Canada started production of their British orders on 26 August, and G.M. of Canada on 3 September, and comprised 21,000 units and of those initially 12,000 were to be delivered to the U.K. and 1,970 for Egypt, though this rapidly changed. One of the first shipments consisted of 70 15-cwt. Chevrolets and 25 Ford 3-Ton trucks, which was a tiny portion of the overall demand. These first British orders had been booked as 150,000 cu. ft. of space on the S.S. St Malo, loading at Halifax, Nova Scotia for the U.K. on 6-8 September 1940 , and then 50,000 cu. ft. had been booked on the S.S. Andalusian, loading St. John, New Brunswick, 14-17 September.

4 September 1940: the M.G.O, wrote to the Secretary, D.M.S. stating that he understood that instructions had been given to Ford and G.M. to tool up to the point of being capable of producing 100 C.M.P. units per day. The companies should initiate production at that level as soon as possible, he requested. It was also suggested that the companies create banks of components in finished, semi-finished and raw states sufficient to permit either company entering production of finished units at the 100-per-day level in not more than 15 days from receipt of instruction to do so. If this suggestion was adopted maximum production could be realised at least 60 days earlier than by other methods.

My vague suggestion was based on trying to assess Chevrolet CMP (or DND-pattern as it was then called) trucks per day then adding in the demand for export to Southampton & Dagenham, and when Chevrolet production actually started, which was later than Ford's start-up. Then of course we have to consider when the domestic Census Number was actually applied to the trucks.
My understanding, and this is under correction, that maximum assembly at Oshawa and Windsor was until ramping-up in September say 100 units per day to include M.C.P. I should also add that I have the Walkerville Plant Chevrolet engine production figures by month for the period, which show that between 5000 and 6000 or so units were produced each month. That includes of course domestic and export civilian car & truck production. GM of Canada show a total of 26,270 Chevrolets produced in 1940. I also have the C.K.D. production by Oshawa each month, showing 324 units in April, which makes sense, and then 1308 in May. 15,665 C.K.D. vehicles were built in 1940 in total, but nearly 3,000 of those could not be military vehicles.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA PRODUCTION FIGURES APRIL 1 1940 TO MARCH 31 1944
YEAR CHEV & G.M.C. M.T. /ARMY DESIGN TRUCKS/ WORKSHOPS /STORES/ LORRIES /WRECKERS/ SHOPS/ 6 X 6
[C.60X]/ TOTAL BY YEARS
1940 7,368 10,291 NIL NIL NIL NIL 17,659
1941 20,471 30,913 259 273 268 NIL 52,184
1942 16,370 59,885 187 197 183 418 77,240
1943 11,976 47,953 181 70 159 809 61,148
1944 3,795 9,977 NIL NIL 90 386 14,248
TOTAL 59,980 159,019 627 540 700 1,613 222,479


INCLUDED IN THIS TOTAL WERE THE FOLLOWING SHIPMENTS
AUSTRALIA 25,352
NEW ZEALAND 1,457
INDIA 69,279
SOUTH AFRICA 2,497
MALAYA 72
TOTAL 98,657


So 10,291 Chevrolet CMPs were in theory built in 1940 with 26,270 Chevrolets built in total, which must include the Chevrolet M.C.P. trucks in the left column (mixed with GMC).

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by cletrac
I'm not sure where I got this one. On the other pix the side panels are made from two wide boards and on this one they're made from several narrow boards.

I'm pretty sure you found it in the thread CMPs for sale in France. It's Michel Casaubon's C15 which is for sale. Send him an e-mail, he might be willing to provide you with measurements.

Hanno

[cletrac (RIP)]

I was waiting for my brother to finish harrowing a couple hundred acres this morning so I took the time to move the rear end back where it belongs. I also cut away most of the scrap iron the other day. It looks a lot better now. I tried the pintle mounts off the F15A and they bolt right on. They look to be the right ones for the C15 too. The only problem is the pintle spring is a couple of inches too short because of the different frame widths. I'll have to get a spring company to make one up for me. It'll probably cost about $50 or so.

[Grant Bowker]

In our thread on the mounting of the towing attachment it was stated that it isn't the spring that is longer, but that the mounting brackets reach further inboard on the F/C15 as compared to the F/C15A and that the same spring assembly is used for both types. (see posting dated March 10 2007 for a photo) Finding the 2 wheel drive brackets could be enough of a chore to make a new/modified spring very atractive.

See:
http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...&threadid=7096

[cletrac (RIP)]

Grant, that's just what I was thinking. The 4x2 brackets will be all but impossible to find. I'll just have to get a new main leaf made that's two inches wider with the two holes near the ends two inches farther apart too.
On checking out the stuff I torched off the frame I see that the piece with the four bolts that they welded on to hold the hitch is part of the original hitch.
On another thread I mentioned that the axles out of my Maple Leaf 2 ton parts truck fit the C15 rear end exactly. The dash gauges are all good too.
I already had a front bumper and crash bar plus a headlight off a derelect C15 that I acquired several years ago so that helps too. There's a non-folding seat with it also.