Canadian Valentine information discovered

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

As you all know I know nothing about tanks! So please excuse my ignorance therefore.

I have been getting my thesis finished for my PhD as new information has come to light c/o Mr Manual[s] Down Under.

To summarise, there is a file in the Public Records Office in London on the subject of building the Vickers IF Mk111A 'Valentine' tank in Canada. The possibility of building Valentines, to which Vickers passed their rights to CANADIAN VICKERS LIMITED was discussed in the Autumn of 1939 between the Canadian Mechanization HQ in Cockspur Street, London and DND HQ, Ottawa. It was suggested that if BP could be imported from the US then the locomotive works could be asked to produce the required tanks. This is of course what happened when Montreal Locomotive Works took on the task. I now add to that basic information a section of my reseacrh paper:

"In March 1939, the War Office had suggested to the then Department of National Defence in Ottawa that Canada should build essential armoured tracked vehicles for Britain [‘Bren Gun Carriers’], over which Vickers-Armstrongs had rights of course. These were later known as the Universal Carrier, Mk. 1, bui1t by Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited. An undertaking was given in June 1939 that if a reasonable price could be secured, then 100 carriers might be ordered to start production, but in December the Ministry of Supply was refused by the Treasury the sum of C$500,000 because there was no lack of capacity at home, there was a vast expenditure of C$ on the Empire Air Training Scheme, and the location of the Canadian Expeditionary Force cancelled the previous undertaking! Any Carriers made in Canada should be at their expense and supplied to the Canadian E.F.! This was hardly diplomatic, and then when in March 1940 a Canadian mission visiting London pressed for the reinstatement of the original order plus an extension to 200 vehicles, the Ministry of Supply said that they had no requirement for them! The Dominions Office [then under the future Prime Minister Anthony Eden I think incidentally] warned that cancellation would be rather unfortunate politically, and the order was then reinstated. This volte face was to prove to be the start of massive orders in due course! In addition to the Universal Carriers, at the outbreak of war, 300 Valentine Tanks were being considered to be produced in Canada to British orders, but in March 1940 the Ministry of Supply concluded that the Canadian companies were not competent to build tanks on the advice of a visiting ‘expert’ and the contract remained in abeyance until June 1940. However, the Canadians were adamant that they could build tanks and other armoured vehicles, and they proved themselves later as having considerable competence indeed!

This is where it gest interesting because the 1944 book on General Motors Overseas Operations Division at War states that the War Office in early 1940 were concerned at the production of power units for Valentine tanks. As we know they intially used AEC petrol and disel engines. Because of successful trials with the Royal Navy using 3-cylinder Detroit Diesel 3-71 diesel engines the WO woke up to the efficacy of the design and contacted GM in England with a view to trying out the 6-cylinder 6-71 unit. GM Limited worked with the Detroit Technical Staff and procured a 6-71 which was then redesigned so as to drop into a Valentine tank in lieu of but interchnageable with the British power units. The Ministry of Supply forwarded complete drawings of the mods required to GMOO [New York] as the engine required alterations to the fuel, water and exhaust connections, mounting brackets, clutch and gear shift controls. Five months of close study and consultation bewteen officials of GMOO, Detroit Diesel Division, CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILROAD, and British officials culminated in the British Purchasing Commission placing an order for 250 engines on 27 September 1940. Note that these diesel engines were specifically orderdd for the Canadian Valentine tanks...I gather that this early 6-71 unit was designated the Model 6-71S, and the later unit was the 6-71A with more power. Post-war these 6-71 units were removed from tanks and then renovated in the Southampton plant and then used in generators, etc. I had no idea until now that GM were involved in the CANADIAN Valentine builds. The book states that by the end of 1943 10,000 6-71 units had been supplied and Russia had ordered 1,500 for Russian-built tanks.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

David
See here
http://data4.archives.ca/netacgi/nph...e.html&r=0&f=S

[ramtank2]

Were GM 6-71 diesels built under liscence in UK?

[Bob Cohoon]

While reading this section,I remembered that there are possibly quite a few Valentines or Grizzlies on a sunken freighter in the St. Lawrence river.It was reported that this ship is not that deep,and this cargo is not that far down from the surface.If this is correct,they must be badly rusted,although armour plate doesn`t rust very much.This would be a diving site to interest some people,eh ?Maybe not all the Valentines are gone.

[Phil Waterman]

Originally posted by enthusiastblue
While reading this section,I remembered that there are possibly quite a few Valentines or Grizzlies on a sunken freighter in the St. Lawrence river.It was reported that this ship is not that deep,and this cargo is not that far down from the surface.If this is correct,they must be badly rusted,although armour plate doesn`t rust very much.This would be a diving site to interest some people,eh ?Maybe not all the Valentines are gone.

There is also a liberty ship loaded with munitions and Valentines that sank of the outer banks of I think North Carolina, US. Friend of mine dive on it ten or so years ago, I think I have a copy of his dive tape someplace will see if I can get any pictures off it. The ship blew-up so the contents are spread across the bottom of the sea.

The site was still dangerous even then, they brought some 37mm shells which the powder would still burn and the primers fired after the powder had been poured out. My friend is ex-explosives expert, EMT, firefighter, bomb squad, diver type.

[John McGillivray]

Workmen at the Angus Shops preparing tank motors for installation into the hull of the Valentine infantry tank 29 Nov 1941

[Bob Cohoon]

I also heard that there is a ship off the coast of New Jersey.I think, which was carrying a shipment of Grants or Lees.It is in scuba diving range,and some people have visited it.Maybe this was the fist batch of these tanks destined for North Africa which I heard was sunk.There is some info on this ship on the internet.