Desert paint color

Chuck Anderson · #1 06-08-07, 04:03

Hi All,

Our reenactment group has started doing North Africa events in Eastern Washington state. The British unit we have represented is the 4th Indian Division.

I am putting together a 1943 MB and am wanting to paint it up as an 8th Army jeep, and don't know anything about the British desert colors.

Is there a recommended color, that possibly I can have mixed up for a sprayer?

Thanks!

Mad_Dan_Eccles · #2 06-08-07, 06:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Anderson
Hi All,

Is there a recommended color, that possibly I can have mixed up for a sprayer?

Thanks!

BS381 No 61 Light Stone was the official colour for the theatre for most of the desert campaign. However there were various disruptive and or local schemes applied on various vehicles at various times some of which were locally mixed and can’t be easily referenced at such a remove – for example 8th army “desert pink” was apparently a mix of light stone and red oxide primer

Most shops in the US probably won’t be able to mix to BS381 charts, but should be able to reference the FS595 equivalent for Light Stone which is FS 33448

HTH
Aidrian

cletrac (RIP) · #3 06-08-07, 07:28

Here's the camo colours used in North Africa. They mainly used the light stone as the basic colour (also known as desert yellow and desert sand by some) and used the different disruptive colours depending on what part of the desert they were in. Quite a few pix of the LRDG used the terra cotta disruptive colour. That's what I'm going to use on my C8 wireless when I get that far.

Tony Smith · #4 06-08-07, 08:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad_Dan_Eccles
BS381 No 61 Light Stone was the official colour for the theatre for most of the desert campaign.
Most shops in the US probably won’t be able to mix to BS381 charts, but should be able to reference the FS595 equivalent for Light Stone which is FS 33448

61 Light Stone is closer to FS 595 33722.
An alternate colour used widely in North Africa is No64 Portland Stone. This is broadly equivalent to FS 595 30277.

Tony Smith · #5 06-08-07, 08:52

While Khaki No 3 is close to FS 595 34088:

alleramilitaria · #6 06-08-07, 09:17

good luck with that
if you have a sherwiliam williams "sahara" is close or just go to lowes and get some color swatches. the good water based ext paint is a good paint that sprays on well if you water it down a little. if you try and get automotive paint then you are looking at about $60-80 a gal for custom mixes paint due to the duller they have to add. let me know if you need any gear or uniforms.
dave d.

Hanno Spoelstra · #7 06-08-07, 09:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Anderson
and don't know anything about the British desert colors.

Chuck,

The best available source on British colours are the reference works published by Mike Starmer. He has publshed a book titled British Desert Colours: Alamein and After 1942-43. This includes small colour samples which you can have mixed up at your local paint store.
To get a flavour of his work, see British AFV Camouflage 1939/1945 at http://www.mafva.org.uk/Resources.asp

Hope this helps,
Hanno

Chuck Anderson · #8 06-08-07, 16:51

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the info!

If I may add on two more questions.......

I believe the jeeps were delivered to the British Army in OD. That would mean the vehicles were painted with the Light stone color in theater. How exstensive did they paint them? I mean, did they paint the engine compartment, interiors, & under carriage with Light stone also?

Regarding the Army hood (or bumper) number (M########), is there a formula to figure this out?

Thanks!

Chuck Anderson · #9 06-08-07, 17:12

I just thought of another question (if I need to start a new thread, please let me know).

I've seen pictures of some 8th Army vehicles with the RAF roundel on the hood. Was that put on for aircraft recognition purposes, or was it put on RAF vehicles only?

Thanks!

cletrac (RIP) · #10 06-08-07, 17:13

My 43 HUP was originally khaki but the air force painted it blue. They just closed the doors and sprayed what you see when standing beside it. The interior, engine, undercarriage, etc stayed khaki.
My 43 Cletrac M2 was originally OD. The air force painted it yellow. The belly and the inside of the tracks stayed OD as did the engine compartment.
The roundels were painted on the upper surfaces for recognition purposes on most vehicles after the Luftwaffe was less of a probllem. This started near the end of the desert campaign and continued into Italy.

Mad_Dan_Eccles · #11 06-08-07, 21:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Anderson
I just thought of another question (if I need to start a new thread, please let me know).

I've seen pictures of some 8th Army vehicles with the RAF roundel on the hood. Was that put on for aircraft recognition purposes, or was it put on RAF vehicles only?

Thanks!

The roundel was widely used for air recognition by 8th Army until 1943.

After Operation Torch some units in Tunisia used a yellow star in place of the roundel, but IIRC the familiar White Star didn't appear until Husky and the invasion of Sicily

Aidrian

Mad_Dan_Eccles · #12 06-08-07, 21:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Anderson
I mean, did they paint the engine compartment, interiors, & under carriage with Light stone also?

Regarding the Army hood (or bumper) number (M########), is there a formula to figure this out?

Depending on circumstances the likely treatment was a quick squirt to change the colour on the visible surfaces. Open topped vehicles might have the interiors painted, but this wasn't always the case. Engine bays and under-surfaces would not normally be painted unless the vehicle was undergoing a major overhaul or rebuild.

The War Department assigned census numbers when the vehicle contract was signed; these were like a modern day registration in that they didn't change when the vehicle moved from one unit to another so there is no formula as such - each contract simply assigned a range of numbers.

Aidrian

Rich Payne · #13 06-08-07, 22:55

There are plenty of four-wheeled experts here to help you with census numbers. They do relate to specific contracts.

Although a motorcycle, this picture gives you an idea of the norms of preparation and finish. I believe that there was a directive not to paint tyres due to deterioration of the rubber.

Mike Starmer · #14 07-08-07, 22:44

I have read this thread with increasing concern. Having actually seen and matched these colours and own some originals this is the gen.
Light Stone 61; Nearest is FS 20260. FS33448 is the 1948 and current colour which is close to BS 361 Light Stone.
Portland Stone 64; FS 33564 towards 33685. FS 33722 is a little too pale and FS 30277 is closest to Light Mud for Italy 1943.
Desert Pink ZI is a new colour introduced in October 1942. I would be most interested to know where you learned that it is a mixture of Light Stone and Red Oxide?
The colour card reproduced here is unreliable to say the least both in colour and use advice.

Mike Starmer · #15 07-08-07, 22:59

Roundels as Air Recognition Signs were introduced in July 1942 for 8th Army vehicles. Optimum size was 10in centre red disc with 10in wide circles of white and blue. Yellow outer was 60% width of circles. i.e. 6in. Where there was insufficient room for this size then a roundel of smaller size and same proportions was to be used. Yellow may be omitted if that colour paint was not available. Placement was to be on any permanent upturned surface like hull decking, cab roof or solid lorry body. However in practice it was placed on canvas hoods were the vehicle was a COE type and open rear as on bridging vehicles.
The colours were not the dull RAF shades but bright shades as used for unit AoS etc. This roundel was used by 8th Army and Commonwealth forces in Sicily and Italy until cancelled in about April 1944 when the white star was generally adopted. Having written that, a white star was placed on tanks and vehicles of 48 RTR in Tunisia in Nov. 1942 and a number of other units seem to have adopted it too during that campaign.

Mad_Dan_Eccles · #16 08-08-07, 19:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Starmer
I would be most interested to know where you learned that it is a mixture of Light Stone and Red Oxide?

Mike

Thanks for your resonse.

The info on Desert Pink came from an man ( now deceased) that I used to work with back in the 70s who had had to paint equipment when serving in the desert; according to him when they didn't have a precise shade premixed they basically threw stuff into a drum until it looked about right.

He didn't talk readily but once you got him talking (it helped to buy him a couple of jugs of beer) he was a fascinating source of information and I wish I had taken closer notes or recorded our conversations.

Beside mentioning the red primer (red lead??) admixture to produce desert pink he also said that in some cases they would try to "extend" a colour that was in short supply by mixing in other colours that they did have to hand from local sources.

When a painter finished for the day any left over paint went back into the drum so the shade was never quite as consistent as some of the more peripheral advocates of precise matches to modern colour chips would like to think.

His comment was that at the repair depots they didn't have always the time or resources to get fussy about the exact colours; close enough was usually good enough - the priority for much of his time there was getting the vehicles back out into service, not coach painting

Aidrian

Mike Starmer · #17 08-08-07, 22:50

Thanks for the feed back on 'desert pink'. There was of course a standard but as you say when the pressure was on then certain measures have to be taken. The actual colour was quite pale compared to Light Stone, described as like that of a new British common housebrick. This is borne out by the few colour photographs and film that I have seen. In b/w pictures the tone is quite light. About the colour range FS 33531/ 30450 but no doubt somewhat darker in view of the mixture given by you. There was another temporary combination used for a short time in the early period of the Sicilian campaign was 5 parts Desert Pink to 1 part Dark Stone as substitute for Light Mud. Given that this mixture is specified in orders it surely follows that there was a standard for Desert Pink. Ah! the joys of modelling.

Mad_Dan_Eccles · #18 08-08-07, 23:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Starmer
The actual colour was quite pale compared to Light Stone, described as like that of a new British common housebrick. This is borne out by the few colour photographs and film that I have seen. In b/w pictures the tone is quite light. About the colour range FS 33531/ 30450 but no doubt somewhat darker in view of the mixture given by you.

Mike

Not to teach my grandmother but perhaps one thing to consider is whether the painters also "extended" the Light Stone paint before adding the red oxide?

There are numerous examples in fields other than MVs of someone adding a pint or more of white to a gallon of colour to make the colour go a bit further if the pigment was in short supply/expensive or just to save time.

That could help explain the apparent difference in shade (as might using up old stocks of "Portland Stone" in place of Light Stone) or any number of other similar expedients in the paint shop.

Certainly I don't see anything inconsistent between the mix that I was told and the colours you suggest - the colour works out about right, we just have a slight divergence in the intensity.

How quickly would the mix fade and chalk in the desert Sun?

Aidrian

Chuck Anderson · #19 14-08-07, 23:20

Thanks to all for the help!

Bob Potter · #20 27-08-07, 23:28

Where did you find those FedSpec fans? I have been trying to put my hands on a set for years, but I suppose I ought to admit I have not been wearing out my horses doing so.

Bob Potter

Tony Smith · #21 29-08-07, 11:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob Potter
Where did you find those FedSpec fans?
Bob Potter

From the US Govt, no less! I got them some years ago, so have obviously lost the accurate details, but it was a Federal Supply Department of the US Govt located in Wash DC. Phoned 'em up, paid by Visa got them a week later. Quite cheap for the fan deck, about US$8 and I also got several 5"x5" color chips of some particular shades that interested me for US 40c ea.

Google some Federal Depts and something will turn up.

EDIT: Well, there you go! Googled it and it was the first response. See Federal Standard Supply. I see their prices have risen steeply since 1994!!!

Bob Potter · #22 29-08-07, 23:31

Thanks a heap, gentlemen. I am off (some would say, waaaay off) to see about the GPO and their internet service.

One of my joys visiting these fora is the wealth of information from such a variety of sources. I love the stories from the gent who painted gear in the field. The story line sounds so completely plausible for field conditions that it makes me feel much more comfortable painting my models as best and as close as I can. I think I may lose less sleep over just exactly what Light Mud is.

Thanks again.

Bob

Chuck Anderson · #23 24-09-07, 20:47

Well......

I was able to get hold of some FS 33722 and shoot the jeep with that. It may not be perfect, but I'm gathering it is very close. It is very interesting to watch how it changes color in the direct sunlight versus the shade. These pictures were taken in the shade so it apears a warmer yellow, whereas it turns very pale yellow in the sunlight. I'll post more pictures as I get it put together.

Chuck

JohnSchade · #24 24-09-07, 21:06

Chuck, I don't want to spoil your party, but I have a sample of Mike Starmer's colour mix for Light Stone 61, and that is way more yellow and also deeper.

But it sure looks good anyway.....

Iain Wyllie · #25 24-09-07, 23:35

Is No 34 Slate Grey really green? Rather strange name for a green unless, of course, it is some exotic form of slate!

Is there a FS number for it? This, if I remember correctly was one of the shades used in the early Caunter scheme and used to be described as a blue grey, but then, maybe my references are out of date.

Mad_Dan_Eccles · #26 25-09-07, 02:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Iain Wyllie
Is No 34 Slate Grey really green? Rather strange name for a green unless, of course, it is some exotic form of slate!

Is there a FS number for it? This, if I remember correctly was one of the shades used in the early Caunter scheme and used to be described as a blue grey, but then, maybe my references are out of date.

You really need to pick up a copy of Mike Starmer's book "The Caunter Scheme" to get back up to speed. Whatever it lacks in glossy production values is more than made up for in the content and research.

The blue grey or light blue for the intermediate shade is shown to be a partial fallacy - "partial" in that some of the alternative colours that may have been used *might* have faded towards a slightly bluish shade of grey. However the sky blues which were once though to have been used and were perpetuated by legions of modellers following Tamiya and Arifix instruction sheets seem to be thoroughly discredited.

If you're in the US try www.boomersbooks.net for a copy.

Aidrian

Iain Wyllie · #27 25-09-07, 12:12

I am happy to admit that my refs go back to the mid to late '70s - "Desert Tracks" by Platz, "Armour camouflage and markings, North Africa 1940-1943" by Bradford and the whole bunch of A&AP books like D-Day to Berlin, British Tank markings and names, etc.
I also downloaded a page headed "British War Colours - North Africa and the Italy" [sic] some years ago with Humbrol mixes for Silver Grey 28, Slate 34, Light Stone 61 and Portland Stone 64 - haven't actually mixed them, though. I scratchbuilt a Mk VIb which resides in my cabinet and I still think it looks good after 30 years!
I will try and get a copy of the book in the UK if it is available here.

Mad_Dan_Eccles · #28 25-09-07, 16:03

Since Mike has already contributed to this thread he may well contact you with an offer you can't refuse...

Hanno Spoelstra · #29 25-09-07, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Iain Wyllie
I will try and get a copy of the book in the UK if it is available here.

If you're in the UK or continental Europe you can order from Mike directly - see details here. His books are highly recommended. Frankly, there is no longer an excuse to use other sources or no references at all . . .

H.

JohnSchade · #30 25-09-07, 22:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
If you're in the UK or continental Europe you can order from Mike directly - see details here. His books are highly recommended. Frankly, there is no longer an excuse to use other sources or no references at all . . .

Hanno speaketh the truth.....