British & Commonwealth prewar artillery tractors

Leonid · #1 31-08-07, 14:15

Hello!

I'm looking for any info about prewar gun tractors or trucks that were used by the British army and Commonwealth armies for towing medium (60pdr guns, 6 inch howitzers, 3" AA guns) and field artillery (18pdrs guns and 4.5" howitzers) before "Matador" and "Quad" artillery tractors were introduced and adopted as main artillery tractors. In spite of my efforts I have only a desultory info to this subject...

What I saw and what I know (briefly).
I've read Canadian medium batteries used 6-wheeled Leyland trucks to tow 60-pounders in the thirties.
This source http://armyapp.dnd.ca/38CBG_ARSD/CD/...RCAHistory.doc says that

Quote:

the first unit to become mechanized was the 3rd Medium Battery, RCA. It was issued four 6-wheeled Leyland tractors in 1929 to tow its 60-pounders. A and B Batteries RCHA Brigade were mechanized in 1930. It wasn’t until 1937 that C Battery parted with its last horses. In 1931, seven field artillery brigades, one medium brigade and one medium battery were placed on the mechanized establishment, but it would be some years before these units would see their equipment.

Australians did use "Thorneycroft" 4x4 tractor (there is some info and photos in different sources).
I've read that Leyland "Terrier" 6x4 trucks were used to tow 3" AA guns (there are some photos in MLU forum).
I saw a prewar photo of Canadian 3" AA gun towed by Ford Marmon-Herrington 6x4 truck (MLU forum).
I also saw a photo of AEC 850 6x6 Artillery Tractor of 15th Heavy Anti-Aircraft Battery towing 3 inch Anti-Aircraft Gun (MLU forum).
There are some photos of Thornycroft military trucks:

http://www.thornycroft.org.uk/Thorny...0Group%20E.htm
http://www.thornycroft.org.uk/Thorny...y%20Group6.htm

But I never saw a photos of any prewar trucks, towing 6 inch howitzers or 60pdr guns (besides Australians "Thorneycroft" tractors)...

As for 18pdrs and 4.5" howitzers, I just know of British Morris CDSW 6x4, Marmon-Herrington 4x4 trucks that were used by Australians and New Zealanders (there is quite a few info about that).
I've also found a photo of Canadian 6-wheeled Leyland trucks towing 18 pdr guns dated June 1930 (same doc file as mentioned above).
I also saw some prewar photos of South African Ford Marmon-Herrington 6-wheeled trucks that were used for moving of 18pdr Mk4 guns (still with wooden wheels!) by "portee" method (the source is Australian War Memorial, ID Number of photo: 002502, "Gun crews of a South African Artillery unit unload their 18 pounder Mk 4 field gun in preparation for manoeuvres in the veldt area", date: August 1940).
A bit off topic: I was really wondered! Didn't South African artillery see any modernization between the wars? I wonder: what trucks did the South Africans use for towing 60pdrs and 6 inch howitzers?

I also know that British Army used a quantity of light "Dragon" tractors (tracked) for 18 pdr guns. Besides, 12 Dragon Mk.IV medium tractors were ordered as far as I know. These ones were given to one of medium artillery regiments and used for towing 60-pdr guns. In 1939, they were included into the British Expeditionary Force and sent to France where they were seized by Germans.

Any info, links, photos, etc would be appreciated!

Regards
Leonid

Tony Smith · #2 31-08-07, 14:29

Leonid, some interesting pics in this thread

servicepub (RIP) · #3 31-08-07, 15:20

Leonid,
I have a series of photos of the tests that Canada undertook which show GM, Thorneycroft and Leyland trucks pulling 60lbers. I also have a few more 3-in AA guns in tow and other miscellaneous. I will dig them out tonight and post.

servicepub (RIP) · #4 31-08-07, 15:34

These images are already on my server so I can post them from work. These are all from the 193x (?) trials except the first one which is in service with ?? Battery, RCA (sorry, captions are at home and I'm not!)

servicepub (RIP) · #5 31-08-07, 15:35

servicepub (RIP) · #6 31-08-07, 15:35

Leonid · #7 31-08-07, 15:38

Good photos, thanks!

It would be nice to identify a trucks. Did these trucks saw service with Canadian army or it was only a trials?

As for "An odd Ford Gun Tractor", yes, I know that topic! Some photos I have mentioned were found there (including "Thorneycroft" tractors towing Australian 60-pdrs or Ford M-H 6x4 truck towing Canadian 3" AA gun)! Unfortunately I was unable to find any photo of other prewar artillery tractor towing medium 60 pdr guns or 6" howitzers...

Les Freathy · #8 31-08-07, 19:37

Hi Leonid

Heres a couple of British pre war gun tractors, first the AEC/FWD R6T/850 used to tow AA guns and 60pdr as well as the 6in

cheers Les

Les Freathy · #9 31-08-07, 19:39

very early Scammell Pioneer with the AAgun mount on the roof with the canvas weather protector in place and featuring early spoked front wheels

Gunner · #10 31-08-07, 21:54

Acquire this book:

http://antiqbook.co.uk/boox/humm/01_3325.shtml

An excellent source for those of us interested in the evolution of Commonwealth Gun tractors

Mike

Les Freathy · #11 01-09-07, 00:19

A couple more for our Russian friend, Scammell towing 6in howitzer

Les Freathy · #12 01-09-07, 00:23

Morris CDSW 6x4 early pre war model towing 18pdr gun and limber still on WW1 wooden spoked wheels, these as most will know were later fitted with pneumatics

Leonid · #13 01-09-07, 08:04

Nice photos as always, thanks!

As for Scammell Pioneer.
Yes, the photo seems to show 6" howitzer being towed by Scammell... but it is rather strange!

The point is that Scammell was intended for towing heavy artillery like 7.2-inch Howitzer that weighed more than 10 tons while 6" howitzer weighed less than 4.5 tons in traveling position (for reference, 60pdr weighed about 5.4 tons). So it would be not rational to use Scammell as regular traction for 6" howitzer. It could happen but this is rather an exception than a rule... Or am I mistaken?
I'm almost sure the British did used something lighter for this purpose. Besides, other Commonwealth countries didn't use Scammell (as artillery tractor) at all as far as I know. But at the same time all Commonwealth armies had medium artillery so they had to adopted a gun tractor to tow them. So, what were the most used regular medium "towers" then?

To Gunner: Yes, it must be very good book

but I am not sure that book is accessible in Russia... Do you have it, btw?

PS: Moderator has moved this topic from "Softskin" to "Gun Park". I'm not sure that it is correct but thanks anyway!

Rich Payne · #14 01-09-07, 10:43

Leonid, do you know the Imperial War Museum "Army Training" series ?

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/qryPhotoImg.asp

If you enter ARMY TRAINING into the "Photograph number" box, it will show you all the images including a number of Morris and Scammell tractors.

Leonid · #15 01-09-07, 11:14

Thanks! And again Scammell towing 60 pdr gun this time...

It looks as if "Scammell" was was the most common tractor for towing an artillery starting with 6-inch Howitzer up to 7.2-inch Howitzer before "Matador" tractor was introduced (at least in England)...

Rich Payne · #16 01-09-07, 12:10

Some operational pictures of the BEF taken from Peter Taghon's "Mei 1940" which may be of interest to you. Captions are my translations of his comments.

"4.5" Gun Mk 1 towed by a Scammel 6x4 Heavy Artillery Tractor"
Schaarbeek 11/5/40

29/5/40 Westouter.

'...6" 26cwt Howitzer Mark 1 on Mark 1P carriage with Scammel 6x4 Heavy Artillery Tractor.

Rich

Leonid · #17 01-09-07, 12:53

Very interestingly, thank you!

BTW: anyone know what was the maximal on-road and off-road speed of Scammell? Did Commonwealth countries used Scammell as artillery tractor or not?

Leonid

Leonid · #18 05-09-07, 12:16

Hmm, there are no new replies anymore for a quite a while...

I lose a hope...

Les Freathy · #19 06-09-07, 22:17

Leonid

The top governed road speed of the Scammell was 24mph, Off road would of course depend on the terrain and with a artillery piece in tow even slower. Scammells were reknown for reliability and not speed. Cant find any info on there use with the commonwealth forces but i lay odds some were unofficially.

Here is a photo of the Leyland Bull Terrier 6x4 artillery tractor designed to tow the 3" anti aircraft gun, i have some where a photo of one towing a 3.7 AA gun, now that would make a 3 tonner grunt
Les

Leonid · #20 07-09-07, 07:43

Thanks!

Hmm, 24mph (around 38 km/h) is a fairly good speed for big boy like Scammell, btw! I was reading of 16 mph before...

Quote:

The overall length must have been fifty or more feet and the engine was a 112 horse power diesel with a top speed of 16 miles per hour http://www.beardsofessex.com/gordonb...%20soldier.htm

Author says of Scammell tank-transporter though...

Quote:

Here is a photo of the Leyland Bull Terrier 6x4 artillery tractor designed to tow the 3" anti aircraft gun, i have some where a photo of one towing a 3.7 AA gun, now that would make a 3 tonner grunt

Yes, I've read these trucks were fitted with five-ton winch but 3.7 inch AA gun weighed more than 9 tons so it really was a hard job! However Leyland Bull Terrier and some other trucks like it could tow 6 inch howitzer (4.4 ton) and 60 pdr gun (5.4 ton), IMHO. Or I'm wrong?

Les Freathy · #21 10-09-07, 13:46

One of the two FWD Roadless gun tractors supplied in 1929 towing a 60pdr and limber on the early carriage.
chers
Les