Brakes lines.....needs advice...

Bob Carriere · #1 01-12-03, 16:49

The time as comes to shop for brake lines for the C15a cab11.

I have disassembled what I have and compared with two other C15 and a C60.

Very particular lines with a special end that bolts throught the frame. I have identified a potential source at CarQuest.... they have a manual listing brake lines dating back to 1924..... with visual pictures of end fittings.

I will be visiting the store today with my actual lines for comparaison.

Here is the help I could use from Forum members......

...has any one out there ordered lines before and do you know the part number and make....???

...my lines are exactly 24 inches long for the front and 18 inches long for the rear line........ are these measurements correct???

Front lines have a special coil steel spring wrapped around the first 4 inches of thelines for added protection..... as anyone found exactly such lines????

Any experienced practical advice or suggestions...comments.

Note to Forum Moderator.......

...would it be possible to create a special folder to list all the after market aprts number that we know from expereince are readily avaialble for CMP.

....part description....original CMP parts number....... current maker ...source...parts number......approx... price...... etc.....

Thanks for all your help

Mike K · #2 02-12-03, 15:42

Hi Bob,

Are you refering to the hydraulic brake hoses ? The Chev CMP's used standard hoses , same as the contemporary civilian Chevs of the 1940's .

On my C8 cab 11 , I was able to buy hoses easily as they are same as civilian chevs of that time . GO to any of the Chev vintage truck parts suppliers like Jim Carter or Chevs of the 40's . There is nothing special about the hoses .

I made up the metal tubing , its called BUNDY tubing here . I bought a flaring tool and you need 1/4" tubing for CMP's . After practicing on some old tubing , it was easy to make nice double flares .

The WW2 Morris - Commercials I have been working on used copper tubing and single flares , can you believe that !

Mike

Francesco · #3 03-12-03, 08:14

The best I know is that military brake systems where different on Chevs too. Look at the enclosed photo from MB-C2 manual. Front hoses don't go directly to the frame, they are attached to a bracket on the axle extension. All the vehicles I have seen at the scrap yard (there are some photos on a past issue of Convoy) and mine too, have these brackets and hoses with threaded end fixed with a nut. The hoses sold by Jim Carter are civilian ones and they are fixed with a clip.
Also, on the C15A parts list they mention a hose that was used up to a certain serial number. It could be this is the kind of hose you find on your vehicle.

Rolf S. Ask · #4 03-12-03, 17:21

I used rear hoses made for a GMC CCKW with Banjo axels on the front axel on my C30... I was told they are the same, and there has been no problems.

Rolf

Francesco · #5 03-12-03, 17:28

This is a very good new. Where did you find the hoses? Are they available still? Thank you

Bob Carriere · #6 03-12-03, 17:43

The infamous brake lines.

I looked at my 4 parts trucks..all Chev.. and all brake lines are similar..... my keeper is the Cab 11 and it has a unique feature. The front brake lines are 24 inches long and go from the hole in the frame to the wheel cylinder.... it connect to a hollow 90 degree brass banjo connector. So far this is similar on all 3 Cab 13....and the cab 11..... However, the cab 11 has this strange little coil spring attached to a clip mid way on the brake hose...... the other end is attached toa tear drop shape washer which as a small hole on the small end. In turn this clip is under one of the screws holding the inner fender wheel......Now if memory serves me well I have observed the same arrangem- ents on Cab 11 at Oshawa and /or the CWM.

I have never seen the axle tab shown in the MB-C2.

Again, will need to check if my memory is correct...... but in a manual that Alex has supplied.... which contains a whole lot of diagrams which are meant to identify axle types and tranny and transfercases...... there is a section on Axle identification..... there are some differences on brake line and emergency cable connection between early models of CMP and later production models. I do not remember seeing any special bulletin.... in the toher manual from alex pertaining to brake hose location or relocation.

Francesco may have an early model. On all my trucks the front line are 24 iches and the rear lines 18...... with particular threaded ends on both ends. From what I have seen in the manual at the store....once we have identified the proper end fittings we then have choice hose hose lenghts........so....

....if Francesco can measure his particular lines I am sure I can locate them. From the picture supplied by Francesco I now can under stand why his front lines are shorter than his rear line..... which is the reverse for me.....confused yet!!!

But who can say for sure what kind of brake hose we should have....????

I have asked Alex to let me know if there is a parts listing manual for Chev CMP..... probably the only book I do not have......

Will be dropping in on the Carquest this afternoon to sort out the lines and will keep you posted. ..... I may ry to photocopy his diagram section of the parts book showing the fittins.

Hang in there.

Rolf S. Ask · #7 03-12-03, 17:45

you can get them many places. The Norwegian MV-club has its own shop, but you need to be a member to be able to buy anything there. I would try such places as Dallas Autoparts. I am sure someone else here knows of dealers with GMC parts....

Rolf

Bob Carriere · #8 03-12-03, 18:59

On this morning NEWS I heard that justice had finally been done to al them folks on the under side of the world who claim to be enjoying Summer wil we freeze our....CMPs.

Said you guys had cold weather and hail the size of golf balls...... finally justice..... just hoping that your truck was parked inside......

Now to get serious for a second.... apparently lines from Jim Carter... I taught he was selling USA sausages.... have the modern lazy clip on the frame connection instead of the slow time consuming treaded bolt which is hated by assembly line experts...hahaha

From what I have seen at the Car Quest dealer here in Ottawa they have a special book going back to 1924 and all kind of lines are listed. The pictorial section allowes you to find the rpoper end fittings and s thread size.... then you just seklect from the various lebght size available. In that store only one clerk knows how to look up stuff... or has the patience to look it up. Went there on Monday afetrnoon he was away and no one else could even find the darn book.

A good patient parts man is priceless.

Steel brake lines are easily found here also.... I have made them before... but always resisted the temptation to work with the easy copper lines has they can be deadly... and actually against the law I believe.

I will be getting my wheel cylinders and master relined with stainless steel inserts.... garanteed for line never to rust or pit..... here in Canada if you do not drive your vehicle and brake hard enough to boil out moisture regularly youneed to bleed and reprime you system every spring after the winter hibernation that most CMP suffer... I would not drive themon our salty roads.

I am intending to use the silicon surplus military brake fluid... even modern Fords are using that stuff now......

Thanks for your insight

Bob C.

Keith Webb · #9 03-12-03, 20:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob C.
On this morning NEWS I heard that justice had finally been done to al them folks on the under side of the world who claim to be enjoying Summer wil we freeze our....CMPs.

Said you guys had cold weather and hail the size of golf balls...... finally justice..... just hoping that your truck was parked inside......

The golfball size hail was in Lilydale, not far from where I live. We had over 60mm of rain overnight at Eltham and many places had much more. They're calling it a 100 year event. The lightning was amazing and went for hours without stopping.
Although cars had smashed windecreens and dented roofs in Lilydale, the windscreens of a CMP are protected.
At least it's still warm here! Hope the winter doesn't freeze your golfballs off.

Colin · #10 03-12-03, 21:48

If you have the old hose, take it to a Hydraulic shop and they can make you new ones, although they may look slightly different.

Francesco · #11 04-12-03, 09:19

A lot of people to answer to. I am sure I own a late C15A, since Canadian forces arrived in Italy late in the war. Also, the part lists shows a hoses configuration from a certain number on which resembles that on my truck. It also mentions the hose retainer spring to which Bob refers. There's a hydraulic shop a couple chilometers from my home, but here in Italy they don't have USA thread fittings, I'd have to have them made especially for me (at least 10.000 pieces). Should Bob is unable to help me out from his supplier in Canada I'll try with GMC hoses. As for the master cylinder, the one on my truck (and the one on the truck of a friend of mine too) had been relined with a brass sleeve and is quite like new. Again, the rubber parts of the correct size are almost impossible to find here in Italy, I have been very lucky to find an old automotive workshop that had a complete set still on the shelf, otherwise I'd have to throw it scrap.
It could help to look at the roof hatch, if I am not going wrong first type trucks had a square hatch while lates had a round hatch.

Keith Orpin · #12 04-12-03, 10:25

Hi Francesco,
Have you tried Jaap Rietveld Auto Parts, based in Belgium ?. Tel/Fax 055 420245, he also has a web site. If you go to Milweb, and look though the dealers, he is listed there. Very helpful guy who deals with GMC spares and more importantly CMP spares ( I recently purchased some 1.5" wheel cylinders from him for my C30).
Hope this helps,
Keith

Bob Carriere · #13 05-12-03, 04:41

I feel like Francesco..... can't decide who to reply first....

Well Yes my golf balls are so c-c-o-o-l-l-d that they have dimples..

I have some hoses on order... if the fittings are the right ones then I just have to decide on the lenght..... If I can find the manufacturer's name and part number I will post has it may be possible for others from around the world... even Vegemite territory... to order locally.

I have gone through a whole bunch of pictures on the 'puter and a few have similar hose arrangement as my Cab 11....typically early cab 11 and 12....parts availability and field expereince may have resulted in the later arrangements as witnessed by Francesco.

As I said to Francesco... I love this detective work.... it is one of the fun part of the CMP obsession.

Francesco · #14 05-12-03, 08:38

I know I am not so good at drawing, however this is what I think is a late C15A brake system.

Colin · #15 05-12-03, 16:35

Does anyone sell landrover parts there? you might try some of the brake lines for the old Series trucks, the threads may fit and they used brass junction blocks also.

Bob Carriere · #16 05-12-03, 21:03

Francesco

You are quite the sketch artist...... shows well how your truck is arranged.....

Good news 3 brake hoses are in.... different length...... clerk tells me on the telephone that the fittings are same as the old line I gave him..... will check them out before 5 tonite.

....and one large socket came in.....

I will need from you the exact lenght for each hose.... how many of each and your full address.....send to my home e-mail site.

The end is near!!!!!!

Francesco · #17 06-12-03, 16:02

Following my sketch I took some photos with the cell phone, as you can see there's no hole on the left side frame rail. My truck is a Cab 13 so this would add to the theory of first and late arrangements.
Bob very good news for the hoses. The bad new is that your AOL address is out of service and I am unable to send you messages and I get a message from AOL concerning unwanted mail. Maybe they are under an hacker attack. I'll try again later.

second photo

wheel cylinder to axle bracket hose

Bob Carriere · #18 06-12-03, 23:06

Hi Francesco

Wonderful pictures...... each worth a thousand words.....

....took some pictures this afternoon this afternoon.... wil resize and post on the forum for all to see..... mine will show where the hole in the frame is on the early models.

Also will post pictures of the NEW brake hose...... and they do have a clip... not a crimped washer like the original... more on that later.....

Sorry about AOL..... they do screw up once in a while..... send it again.....

Baby it's cold out there....-9 degree Celsius.... was skidding logs for fire wood and nearly froze my A**...... warming up to a glass of Amaretto cream from Italy... called Talea...real nice....

Later.....

Francesco · #19 07-12-03, 08:55

Warning. The brake hoses with the clip are those sold also by Jim Carter and they don't fit easily on the truck. The reason for which they originally put a nut on the fitting is that there are different thicknesses, the frame side rail is thicker than the bracket on the axle. You won't be able to slide the clip on the hose fitting because the slot in the hose end fitting remains inside the hole on the frame. If they don't sell screwed up hoses we better look for the GMC ones, as someone suggested, and check if they have the nut configuration.

Bob Carriere · #20 09-12-03, 20:11

Don't panic yet.... the hoses I have will take the original 3/4 inch jam nut.....

...will have some pictures of the frame .. the old hoses and the new ones.....

....my spare time has been reduced greatly by a broken tooth, I wrenched my back putting up Xmas decorations and can't sleep or sit down at the 'puter or to watch TV.... he## can hardly sit in the trcuk to drive to work......

...so much for getting old.....

Will have all the sexy bare nuts pictures up before weeks end.... even if I have to stand in front of the computer....

Hang in there..... sore as H***

Francesco · #21 10-12-03, 08:52

Hello Bob, it is impossible to send you messages through AOL. You better change your server. I have found the brake hoses, the price is 15,00 Euros each, any lenght. What's the price in Canada? Has the hub nut socket arrived yet? Regards

Bob Carriere · #22 14-01-04, 20:39

Bonjour all.... and Hello to Francesco...

Sorry the Holidays and my social life conflicted with my CMP preoccupation...

I will try to post my first pictures of new brake hoses I obtained from CarQuest.... there will be a seires of pictures and I am not sure if I will have to send then one at a time.

The first... hopefully attached to this email shows the end part of the hoses... old and new.... the end that goes through the frame.

Note the difference on the washer that prevents it from going through the frame. The old one had a criped on round washer. The new one has a u shape or lira shaped washer.... very minor thng that will not affect fit.... for purists you can easily remove the new u shape washer and replace with a suitable size and spot weld with a mig welder....personaaly I will trun the u opening downwards and it will not be seen readily.

Caution.... the new hose DOES NOT include the jam nut and washer... now identical washers are readily available but so far I have not been able to find a similar thin jam nut..... induatrial supplier catalogue proved useless...... make sure you save and clean your old jam nut......

Now I ontained my hoses from a patient clerk at CaR Quest... they are harder to find then the hoses.....

Hose is manufactured by Raybestos..... Wagner has identical parts.

CarQuest part number SP788......23 inches......$39.70 CDN
SP968.....17.5 inches....$27.47
SP192.....18.5 inches....$35.02

Original line from my C15 was 24 inches...tried the new one and the minus one inch should not be a problem.

PS... for those with good eyes the number on the washer of the old hose is....Pat 1934....

Now to attach the first of two pictures.

Bob Carriere · #23 14-01-04, 20:51

The other end of the hose.... the end that fits in the brass block attached to the brake cykinder.... is identical.....

My original hose had a spring wrapped around the last 5 inches as protection against abrasion...rubbing.... also keeps the lines semi rigid away from the tire...

I have obtained a suitable spring.... over the counter at Princess Auto.... my intentions are to wrap the new spring by hand around the bottom part. To remove the shiny finish of the spring I have used "gun blueing" acid that turns the spring to dark blue/black.
The same acid trick can be used on new screws and bolts... also help paint to adhere better.

There goes attachment 2......

Will also post some frame picture for Fancesco to see where on the frame the original brake line hose goes..... front and back..

Francesco · #24 16-01-04, 17:38

Hello Bob, you got it! That's the correct hose for the truck. It fits also on my truck's configuration, from the axle diff Tee to the frame hole. The other hoses are shorter, say some 18" lenght. There's a photo on the maintenance manual where you can see the hose coming up from the wheel to the frame hole (instead of going to the hub bracket, like it is on mine). By the way, did you send the hub nut socket? Best regards, Francesco

Bob Carriere · #25 17-01-04, 23:43

The following are pictures to complete the brakeline comparaison set up that Francesco previously posted.

There is no doubt that the set up that Francesco has on his late model Cab 13 is by far superior and less prone to catching up in branches etc while off road 4x4 driving.

One question for Francesco.... once you have seen where the "hole" for the brake line go through the frame on my pictures....can you check on your frame to see if your frame has these hole???? or whether there was a modification to the late frame from the factory....

As usual I can post only one picture at a time... and I do not have a high speed connection being in a rural area....

First picture...2027... from a C60...driver's side..
The brakeline "hole" is directly above and in front of the shock absorber ...shows as a white spot...I stuffed a paper towel from the back...

Bob Carriere · #26 17-01-04, 23:50

Pic. # 2017...

...shows brakeline coming through the frame on a C15 x-water truck... shock absorber has been removed....pass. side.....

Note:... halfway down the rubber brakeline is the metal clip...yellow.. that holds the coil spring that is stretched upward to a bolt on the inner fender.....

see next picture....

Bob Carriere · #27 18-01-04, 00:00

ATTENTION... could someone tell me how to post multiple pictures to save time...

This is the last of 3.... #2025.... show the rear axle of the x-water truck...

The rear brakeline is identical to the front ....same type connectors BUT shorter and without the wrapped coil spring. The rear line on that truck and the C60 and the Cab 11 C15 are similar overall length being 18 inches.

It starts at the metal bracket riveted to the under side of the frame on the driver's side. Bolted through the metal bracket like the installation on the front frame. Line goes down to the brass block on the rear axle. Bottom end connector identical to front line. It seems that the line is long enough to accommodate the full axle travel but it would no doubt stretch it fully.

Now we have on the forum for full comparison the late and early brakeline set up....

Francesco · #28 18-01-04, 13:40

Hello Bob, the brake line configuration is the same for the rear drive train. As for the front axle, I always wondered what was that hole meant for on the frame rail. Certainly the front brake hose had a strange course interfering with the shock absorber brace. Also enclosed is a photo of the front axle diff line configuration on my truck.

front axle configuration

Francesco · #29 18-01-04, 13:56

Looking at the photos of Bob's truck, the front spring axle bracket also seems to be different. On my truck, there was a rubber half sphere bolted to the bracket where the circle is now empty, due to the fact the rubber was completely burned out by the sun. Enclosed is an abstract from the MB-C2 manual. The photo, although not so clear, shows a first type configuration. The hose is coming straight out from the wheel cylinder and goes upward while on the later configuratione there is a brass connector on the wheel cylinder oulet and the hose goes toward the rear of the vehicle.

Bob Carriere · #30 19-01-04, 05:18

Nice pictures Francesco...... now I fully understand your brakeline set up......

HOWEVER...... did my computer screen colors play a trick on me or are your metal brake lines made of copper?????

Copper brake lines are illegal in Canada...... in fact it would not pass certification....... I would hate to see you get hurt or even worst demolish your fine truck ...hahaha...... I know it is tempting to use the copper...so easier to use... but they can burst under hard braking and much more prone to metal fatigue.....

I am looking forward to the warm weather ........

Send my your complete home address to my home adress so I can send you the big 3 inch socket.

Now for the rubber brake lines ......can you get them cheaper in Italy or Europe or do you want me to send you some..... prices are on an earlier MLU e-mail......

Did you have to totally dissassemble your axles...... did you need to replace any wheel bearing and seals......???? I have all these mysteries to look forward to in the Spring......

All in all I much prefer your brake line installation..