Jeep colours

[Tim Sullivan]

All,

One last bothersome question For now...

Was wondering about jeep paint colour, I'm not going to ask about shade, as that is alwasy a subjective question What I'm wondering is about their pant colour in reference to the camoflauge schemes in use at the time.

When manufactured for the US Military they were producted in Lustreless Olive Drab. When built for Canadian/British contracts, were they painted the same colour, or did the Commonwealth armies specify a different colour?

If the jeeps were delivered in Lustreless OD, were they re-painted in whatever was the standard base colour, or was the camouflage colour applied over the OD?

I've seen photos of jeeps in MME and other disruptive schemes, but in B&W photos it's hard to tell base colour, as we all know. I've checked out Milfax, and although there is great info on there I don't know if the Jeep would fall under the same guidelines for base colour.

One last question, if they were re-painted by the Brits upon recipt, were they just oversprayed with the jeep staying together, or were they taken apart to be re-painted? Thinking of pics of modern vehs like Hummvees that you see the sand painted on the outside, but the OD can be seen in the engine compartment or other inside panels.

Thanks a bunch!

Tim

[Pete Ashby]

Tim

the answer is they came out of the crates as semi knock down in factory lustreless drab, were assembled and then the early orders were hand painted in Knobbles tarmac green on upper surfaces, see wheels and tracks No1 for the full storey the picture below is a scan from the same publication.

Pete

[Mike Starmer]

The colour in use when this jeep is being painted is not Nobel's Dark Tarmac 4 since this colour was only in very limited use in 1941. The colour for the scheme illustrated is SCC 14 black used from 1942-44.

[Pete Ashby]

Mike

I'm interested by your reply do you have an earlier reference source than ACI 1496 dated 13 October 1942 for SCC14 as a preferred colour?

Pete

[Mike Starmer]

SCC 14 Black is only listed as a secondary colour in ACI 2202 Nov. 1941 and ACI 1160 of May 1942. This last ACI is the final mention of Dark Tarmac No.4. The prefered use of SCC 14 occurs in ACI 1496 of October of 1943, NOT 42. It is because of this late date that many vehicles that went to France in June '44 had SCC 1A disruptive and not black.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

All I can tell is that this is a camouflaged Jeep. Everything else is unknown to me.

[Les Freathy]

Hanno, that jeep is it in service with the free Poles, Cliff sent me a disc with polish photos and the women in some of the shots are dressed very similer
Les

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
All I can tell is that this is a camouflaged Jeep. Everything else is unknown to me.

Hanno,

The Census number shows it to be one issued to the Middle East, possibly born out by the painted windscreen, often seen in the desert campaign.

[Larry Hayward]

Almost certainly this camouflaged Jeep is in Italy, as it looks similar to other camo Jeeps I have seen over the years.

[Mike Starmer]

A very interesting photograph. Whilst not matching the official pattern there are certain elements that bear more than a passing resemblance to it. Is that white paint under the front mudguard?

[chris vickery]

Sorry to hijack your post Tim, but I have another question to ask our jeep guys here...

Does anyone have any info on jeeps in RCN (Royal Canadian Navy) service? Pictures, serials etc???

Also interested in jeeps in RCAF livery.

[Jan Mostek]

I have read the comments on Jeep colors which inspired me to ask you what are your opinions about the jeeps used in North Africa, especially those used by SAS. Were they repainted sand over the OD or were they painted sand ex-works? I have heard both answers already. The pictures of those jeeps show that the sand paint was often worn out, especially on edges. But is is not clear is the dark paint which appeared beneath the sand was ex-works OD or just a sort of primer or even the metal. And consequently, if the jeeps were re-painted, does it mean that engine compartment, engine and chassis with bottom of the body remained original OD?

Thnaks a lot in advance for your comments,
Jan.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Jan Mostek
what are your opinions about the jeeps used in North Africa, especially those used by SAS. Were they repainted sand over the OD or were they painted sand ex-works?

Jan, as mentioned earlier, jeeps were delivered from the factory painted Olive Drab (except for a few built under USMC and Canadian government contracts). So all jeeps used in North Africa painted Light Stone were repainted.

Looking at pictures (some shown below) it looks like the body was painted inside and out. Sometimes paint was sprayed partly over the tyres, sometimes not. Although the front end of the chassis was repainted, I doubt the whole chassis was repainted. Basic guideline was that the jeep had paint applied to all visible areas, so the underside of chassis and engine bay would most likely remain olive drab, but with overspray.

Hope this helps,
Hanno




source

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mike Starmer
A very interesting photograph. Whilst not matching the official pattern there are certain elements that bear more than a passing resemblance to it. Is that white paint under the front mudguard?

Mike, to me it seems like a coating of dust. Is the rear right hand corner painted white?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Jan Mostek]

Hi Hanno,
thank you for your comments regarding the sand-painted jeeps. Your comments is exactly in spite of my thoughts. You know, for scale modelers like me, it offers a lot of variety of paint application effects on scale jeep models, for example overspraying the edges when the hood would be opened etc. And one more point to discussion, what about the serial (or Census) numbers? Were these numbers painted on already in factory? Again, if it was painted in factory, it means it should have been repainted with sand color and could appear beneath, either because worn-out sand paint or because there was one more layer of paint where the number was applied. You know, those scale modelers are crazy sometimes...

Happy searching, Jan

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Jan Mostek
And one more point to discussion, what about the serial (or Census) numbers? Were these numbers painted on already in factory? Again, if it was painted in factory, it means it should have been repainted with sand color and could appear beneath, either because worn-out sand paint or because there was one more layer of paint where the number was applied.

Jan, the War Depertment numbers were applied upon receipt (serial numbers were not painted on the vehicle, they were stamped on chassis and data plates). So if a jeep was uncrated and assembled in the UK, it would have had a number applied there. If it was sent to North Africa after being assembled in the UK, it would be repainted upon receipt there, and the number would have to be reapplied over the new paint.
Many Lend-Lease vehicles were shipped direct to North Africa though, so the most likely scenario would be fresh ex-factory Olive Drab arrivals in North Africa, being repainted Light Stone and having their assigned WD number applied on top of that.

H.

[Mike Starmer]

The camo'd. Jeep of Polish use is I think, in Italy. The colours seem to be the official Light Mud and Black but the pattern is certainly not the official design. There again the Poles often did there own thing with vehicles so no surprise to me there. The rear corner is white as an aid to night driving, the front ends of the bumper may have been white as well. You are probably correct about the mud under the front mudguard too. In England white front and rear edges etc. were a legal requirement for all vehicles both civilian and military due to total blackout conditions but I have seen pictures of this white marking on vehicles in NWE too.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Tim, I seem to recall parts books for early contract MB jeeps calling for parts with different colours depending on whether they were for Canadian contracts or not. This suggests early Canadian jeeps were supplied in the Canadian colour of the day, that being khaki.

While we're at colours, would anybody guess at the colours on this HUW? It is a mid 1943 to very early 1944 model and was photographed in England prior to the Normandy invasion. I 'm assuming the base colour is the factory applied brown (No. 2) but is the cam a dusty black or dark brown?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mike Starmer
The camo'd. Jeep of Polish use is I think, in Italy. The colours seem to be the official Light Mud and Black but the pattern is certainly not the official design.

A jeep restored in the Italian Light Mud & Black colour scheme, including the white paint under the fenders (if I recall correctly), would be a very attractive sight to see!

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
Tim, I seem to recall parts books for early contract MB jeeps calling for parts with different colours depending on whether they were for Canadian contracts or not. This suggests early Canadian jeeps were supplied in the Canadian colour of the day, that being khaki.

That very topic is being discussed in Canadian contract jeeps, although it seems the jury is still out on the final verdict. . . I would value any input on this particular subject.

Thanks,
Hanno

[Eric B]

Hello

The Original CDN Contract Jeeps were repainted when they arrived in Britian when they were assembled. NOS Parts for these have been seen in two different colours. I would agree with Bruce that some possibly could be Khaki.

Some were Mickey Mouse while others were a foilage pattern. As you can see there is a great deal of debate on the colours used.

I would say it would be whatever they had available at the time and the shades would be different for every batch they had mixed. Others have already talked about the possible colours used.

Those jeeps remaining in Canada would have remained the manufacture colour. Except for the Bantam and GP's which were camouflage. Oh and some of the RCN and RCAF jeeps. Some of these were painted Gray or Blue.

Jeeps later bought used from the USA would have arrived in the US colours and most likely would not have been repainted.
It is interesting to note that these vehicles would have had the USA number on the hood, which would have been painted over and the WD number added. so if you have a USA Numbered vehicle, it could also have been used by the Cdn or British.

The Camo jeep photo is from the Sikorsky London Archives available to see on line. There is a link on MLU in another section.

Thanks

Eric

[Jan Mostek]

The jeep shown below is pure american, but I guess it is very interesting because it in US Navy livery and of course, because the purpose for which it is used.

I would expect the US Navy vehicles to be painted blue gray with black lettering, this jeep looks to be ordinary olive drab. What is little bit strange to me is the black field under the USN letters. Does anybody have some additional information or explanation?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Jan Mostek
I would expect the US Navy vehicles to be painted blue gray with black lettering, this jeep looks to be ordinary olive drab. What is little bit strange to me is the black field under the USN letters. Does anybody have some additional information or explanation?

Jan, jeeps used by the US Navy were delivered in Olive Drab. When needed, some of them were repainted by their sea-based users.

I think the black patch was painted over the USA registration number, so it could be renumbered with a USN number.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Eric B
The Original CDN Contract Jeeps were repainted when they arrived in Britian when they were assembled. NOS Parts for these have been seen in two different colours. I would agree with Bruce that some possibly could be Khaki.

Some were Mickey Mouse while others were a foilage pattern. As you can see there is a great deal of debate on the colours used.

Eric,

Do you imply:
1) CDN contract jeeps were given an entire repaint upon assembly in the UK? Or, in camouflaging terms: were given a new base colour?
2) Or do you mean they were painted with a camouflage colour on top of the base colour applied when manufactured?
The latter is the case as I understand it.

There is evidence to sustain the claim that all - not some - Canadian Contract jeeps were painted Khaki Green 3 when manufactured. Ref. the thread Canadian contract jeeps:

In Maple Leaf Jeeps (Wheels & Tracks issue no.1), Bart Vanderveen writes (bold font added by me):

• "Our copy of Parts List TM-10-1512 of April 1942 (Willys-Overland MB 'Government Truck') has a rear pocket containing a Parts Price List and two separate lists of (a) Parts peculiar to the US Marine Corps Truck and (b) Parts peculiar to the Light Utility Vehicle built for the Canadian Government. Both lists give different parts numbers for scores of items, many of which differed from the US Army versions only in colour. Included are such major assemblies as the frame, the body and others such as hood (bonnet) and windshield (windscreen)."

[Eric B]

Hello Hanno

Initially when the CDN Contract Jeeps were assembled in Great Britain they were painted camouflage in various patterns, such as the Foilage and Dapple patter. Mickey Mouse Pattern seems to be a verison of the Dapple Patter. This was painted over the initial manufacturers colour. The jeep was not repainted ecompletely just the outside surfaces.
Jeeps remaining in Canada remained in the solid manufactureres colour except for the test GP and Bantam, which were camouflage as well.

Later these vehicles were only repainted as needed.

The new or used non Canadan contract jeeps were issued in the US colour and the used ones had the hood numbers painted over.


Yes both manufacturers colours have been seen on the CDN Jeeps. Of course once in the field the colours varied depending on what was available and who mixed the paint.

Eric

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Camouflaged jeep in Tunisia / Libya:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another camouflaged Canadian Jeep.

The big question of course is: in which camouflage scheme was this painted?

Personnel of the Loyal Edmonton Regiment filling a jeep with gasoline, San Lorenzo in Monte, Italy, ca. 22 September 1944.

Source: Library and Archives Canada

[Keith Brooker]

Hope this helps came from my US Manual Camouflage Painting of Vehicles and Equipment. 1942. FM 5-21.

[Eric B]

Hello

The Canadian Jeeps followed the British marking standards, therefore the US markings and camo would not apply.

I noticed in the British Archive photos that many of the British jeeps in Italy were a camo pattern. As Canada obtained some of the jeeps from the British (as we traded new ones in the UK for them) we would have had some with the same camo style.

Some of the airborne jeeps at D-Day would have been camo as well, although a different style.

The earlier jeeps definetly had camo on them. After D-Day those that appear to have camo on them (from photos in the CDN Archives) were the CDN Contract MB's. The majority of the others that are one colour are the non CDN contracts.

As i indicated earlier that there were several camo patterns used by Canada and that there were variations of these as well.

Later issue jeeps remained the factory paint untill they needed to be painted. Then whatever paint that was on hand was used.

Thanks
Eric