Canadian Dodge CMP prototype photo

gordon · #1 26-10-07, 18:31

I'm thinking of doing a Dodge article for one of the hobby magazines, and would like to include the best available shot of the Dodge CMP prototype.

I've seen an image on here a few times, even kept a copy, but it was very grainy and not really suitable for reproduction. Anyone got a better copy that I can use? I can pass on source and copyright info, just need to get a decent shot to illustrate the text.

While I'm on, anyone want to volunteer nice images of a T212 / D8A, T222 / D15, T110 / D60 variants, even an APT ? I will attribute copyright and the like, but since it's a hobby thing no cash involved - just minimal glory. Plain shots showing the basic vehicles preferred.

Ta !

Snowtractor · #2 30-10-07, 01:43

...the heck do you have the time? Its not like those old golden bachelor days you know.
Sean

gordon · #3 30-10-07, 13:13

Tell me about it.

I'm sure I have a garage with a handfull of trucks in it somewhere - can't quite remember.

Writing is what I do in the winter when it's too cold to be in the garage. You remember cold, don't you Sean, that's where you used to live before you moved down to the warmth.

Penguin getting plenty of fish?

8~)

G

cliff · #4 30-10-07, 20:57

Gordon the only photo I have seen on MLU is from http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/cmp_canad...ry_pattern.htm
Perhaps he has a better copy or more information about it.

I wonder every now and again if any of these Dodge prototype CMP's survived.

gordon · #5 31-10-07, 18:21

that's the shot I was thinking of, wonder if Colin has a better version?

Hanno Spoelstra · #6 02-02-10, 10:12

Moved over from Scenes from Italy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Who, from all the MLU expert, can tell me more about the Dodge in the second string of pictures......??

It has a closed cab Dodge cab..... year?? right hand drive... with a CMP cargo box..(2C1 ?) and a CMP tool box and possibly CMP fuel tanks.....and a CMP 2 wheel drive front axle??? or was the axle proprietory to Dodge??

Bob,

Our resident Dodge expert from Scotland will no doubt chime in shortly, but the Dodge in the picture is a regular Dodge D15 15-cwt 4x truck. It is typical of the Modified Conventional Pattern (MCP) vehicles: civilian chassis/cab, with military cargo box, lighting, wheels/tyres, etc. There was no such thing as a CMP 2 wheel drive front axle, only a Chevrolet, Ford, and in this case a Dodge axle.

HTH,
Hanno

Bob Carriere · #7 02-02-10, 16:33

A few more details.....

All three major players had their own front Beam axle.... Dodge.....Chev.... and Ford..... yet all had the same CPM bolt pattern. Did they use special adapters on the civilian beam axle similar to the C* to accept CMP bolt patterns.......

As pictured in Mike's posting..... that D15 represents what model year for Dodge....... 1940--41 or earlier.

...and while I have you attention Hanno...... did you ever send me the lenght measurements for those 3 brake lines..?

Bob

gordon · #8 02-02-10, 19:09

It's a regular T222 engineering code D15, the production conventional configuration rather than the cab forward configuration shown in the image that Colin M-S found, shown here;

They will have used a regular Dodge front axle and put special hubs on it to suit the wheel pattern. In fact this truck and the cab forward version would be near enough mechanically identical except for steering and control linkages I think?

Gordon

Hanno Spoelstra · #9 18-09-11, 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordon

They will have used a regular Dodge front axle and put special hubs on it to suit the wheel pattern. In fact this truck and the cab forward version would be near enough mechanically identical except for steering and control linkages I think?

Gordon and I are speculating about this again over on HMVF. It dawned on me the wheelbase of the T222 D15 is 128.5" compared to the 101" wb of the CMP 15-cwt chassis. So, the Dodge 15-cwt CMP prototype was not simply a T222 D15 with a Ford CMP Cab 13 stuck on.

Could it be a Ford (note the cab) 15-cwt with a Dodge badge stuck on it, possibly a Dodge engine stuck in as well?

What are your thoughts on this?

Hanno

PS: apart from any possible engineering and manufacturing challenges, I think one of the reasons this truck was not taken in production is because orders for 4x2 trucks must have been declining by the time the Cab 13 was taken in production.

gordon · #10 18-09-11, 13:36

Well, if we take that prototype, and subtract the rear body, toolbox, and wheels as ordinary CMP stuff.

The front axle, rear axle, engine, transmission, suspension and drivetrain could all be standard off-the-shelf T222 series from the ordinary D-15, the most would need to do would be to make a specific length of driveshaft from the transmission to back axle.

That lot aside, you are left with the steering column, chassis, cab, and drivers controls. I suspect the chassis was made specially, and the steering colum and controls would be modified civilian stuff.

The image shows a square roof hatch - anyone tell me if the cab features are identifiably early, late, Ford, Chev ?

Hanno Spoelstra · #11 18-09-11, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordon

The image shows a square roof hatch - anyone tell me if the cab features are identifiably early, late, Ford, Chev ?

Yes, that's why I said "Could it be a Ford (note the cab) 15-cwt with a Dodge badge stuck on it".
Colin's picture is too grainy, but I cannot see the "FORD" or "FORD CANADA" stamped under the headlights, typical for later Ford cabs.

H.

servicepub (RIP) · #12 31-12-12, 17:01

Does anyone know the story behind the Dodge-made CMP?

Frank v R · #13 31-12-12, 20:25

Hi Clive , are you asking about all the modified conventional trucks that were produced or the Dodge prototype CMP, or the D 3/4 APT?

servicepub (RIP) · #14 31-12-12, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank v R

Hi Clive , are you asking about all the modified conventional trucks that were produced or the Dodge prototype CMP, or the D 3/4 APT?

The prototype CMP

Hanno Spoelstra · #15 01-01-13, 13:10

Colin Stevens notes on his webpage http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/cmp_canad...y_pattern.htm:
"Dodge CMP prototype - Note large name plate on grill, and spindly front hubs. From DESIGN RECORD Volume 5 p. 27D of 2 book set."

Did anyone who has access to it, check the Design Record?

H.

servicepub (RIP) · #16 01-01-13, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Colin Stevens notes on his webpage http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/cmp_canad...y_pattern.htm:
"Dodge CMP prototype - Note large name plate on grill, and spindly front hubs. From DESIGN RECORD Volume 5 p. 27D of 2 book set."

Did anyone who has access to it, check the Design Record?

H.

Yes. I have these and the photo posted above is a scan from the Design Record. The DR makes no mention of the Dodge CMP in any way and the photo is used merely to illustrate the top hatch. Very intriguing.

C.

Colin Macgregor Stevens · #17 10-06-13, 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Colin Stevens notes on his webpage http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/cmp_canad...y_pattern.htm:
"Dodge CMP prototype - Note large name plate on grill, and spindly front hubs. From DESIGN RECORD Volume 5 p. 27D of 2 book set."

Did anyone who has access to it, check the Design Record?

H.

Well, I could sell you my ORIGINAL "DESIGN RECORD" A.E.D.B. 1945 2-Vol set and you could double check it for yourself. ;-)

I have only found the photo that I scanned. Yes it is grainy but the best and the ONLY image of this truck that I have seen. I have found no mention of it anywhere. The identification was by me because the Design Record used the photo as a generic late cab model illustration - but the name plate and hub spindles caught my eye!

I suspect that only one was made. It is not known to have survived.

Interestingly several of the older DND Pattern (later called CMP) pilot models have survived. I am defining prototype as THE one original, hand-built made by a manufacturer and Pilot as the limited production e.g. 6 or 20 or whatever pre-production.

Here are some surviving Pilot models of the Canadian 15-Cwt. trucks.

FORD

Bill Gregg had one complete. Now in the RCA Museum in CFB Shilo.
Don and Katrinka Gordon have one under restoration ex-Gary Moonie and believed to be the one in the photo with my Dad in Niagara on the Lake route march in c.1941. Found near Victoria, BC and still in that area. They have a 2A1 original wooden cargo box ("tray" to our friends down undah) from the first pattern 15 Cwt which I brought out from Saskatchewan for it as it is identical to what these Pilot models had except for the notch in the tailgate. It can be used as a pattern. They have not yet progressed to the cargo box.
Cab only. In the Canadian War Museum collection.

CHEVROLET

1938 (?) 15-Cwt found in B.C. Interior by Albert Siemons [possibly one of at least two used by the Westminster Regt - re war time photos]. Has a flatbed body on back. Painted white. Cab very complete and original. I passed it up ($1,000) as I did not have a good place to put it or resoures to restore this rare ... nay UNIQUE .... Canadian treasure so I told the CWM about it and they bought it. It is the ONLY one that I know survives. At least one was taken overseas woith the 1st Canadian Division as it shows up in Seaforth photos.

Then there are Prototypes or Pilots of various models e.g. Roy Wellburn of Williams Lake BC had one of the HU-ZL (Wireless repair) made by the factrory which converted an early HUP. It had both sets of data plates on it! It went to Manitoba and is supposed be coming back to BC. The new owner is not a club member.

Colin

rob love · #18 10-06-13, 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens

FORD

Bill Gregg had one complete. Now in the RCA Museum in CFB Shilo.
Don and Katrinka Gordon have one under restoration ex-Gary Moonie and believed to be the one in the photo with my Dad in Niagara on the Lake route march in c.1941. Found near Victoria, BC and still in that area. They have a 2A1 original wooden cargo box ("tray" to our friends down undah) from the first pattern 15 Cwt which I brought out from Saskatchewan for it as it is identical to what these Pilot models had except for the notch in the tailgate. It can be used as a pattern. They have not yet progressed to the cargo box.
Cab only. In the Canadian War Museum collection.

Colin

Colin
You have not been keeping up on the MLU gossip. There is a fourth one at the Reynolds museum in Wetaskiwan Alberta. That means that at least 4 of the 40 1939 pilots are known to survive....10% of that production run.

Colin Macgregor Stevens · #19 10-06-13, 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love

Colin
You have not been keeping up on the MLU gossip. There is a fourth one at the Reynolds museum in Wetaskiwan Alberta. That means that at least 4 of the 40 1939 pilots are known to survive....10% of that production run.

True enough! I am just too busy and there are so many forums out there! That being said, I am delighted to hear that another one of the Canadian pilot models (Ford?) has survived.

Alex van de Wetering · #20 15-09-13, 10:50

Just stumbled upon this picture.

Source: http://www.museevirtuel-virtualmuseum.ca

It's dated: "20th Century 1939 -1945", not very specific. But, this picture seems to be show the same vehicle and is dated 1943

Source: http://www.museevirtuel-virtualmuseum.ca

Interesting......looks like a Ford cab13, but picture taken at the General Motors plant in Oshawa according to the description.

rob love · #21 15-09-13, 12:59

Ignoring the Ford features on the truck, it definitely has Ford's trademark sign painter's work on the doors.

Lynn Eades · #22 15-09-13, 13:44

So did Ford supply one front tyre, and G.M. the other? (Dodge would have done a pair)

servicepub (RIP) · #23 15-09-13, 14:19

I guess I'll let the cat out of the bag. I have located the original photos of this Dodge and they will be shown in "Drive to Victory". There is little information available other than a trial report nut it is safe to say that this vehicle was a 'proof of concept' vehicle developed in case it was necessary to expand 15cwt production.
Clive

Jordan Baker · #24 23-12-18, 20:08

Found these pictures of a Chrysler built CMP FAT being trialed. I suspect it might be the same truck as the one pictured above.

Keith Webb · #25 23-12-18, 20:14

Why would this series of images be listed as a Chrysler when it is clearly a Ford and not even a real FAT?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

Found these pictures of a Chrysler built CMP FAT being trialed. I suspect it might be the same truck as the one pictured above.

rob love · #26 23-12-18, 20:51

Perhaps it was a prototype to go along with the larger 17 pdr. I think I see winch fairleads both front and rear, and the design of the cargo box is a bit different. Perhaps it has a Dodge flathead powering it. While we identify those axles as Ford axles, they are simply of the timken design, and would have been available toany manufacturer who wanted them. Note also the foothole on the right side gate.

Lots of perhaps here...I'll check my design branch records and see if there is any further info.

Jordan Baker · #27 23-12-18, 20:58

Good catch Rob.

Here are the fair leads close up.

Keith Webb · #28 23-12-18, 21:24

The Dodge engine may be present, you can't tell but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't bother to tool up to build an identical copy of a Ford with what looks suspiciously like FORD CANADA under the headlights. It even has the Ford horn and overflow tank. Perhaps they were contracted to modify a Ford F60S for gun towing. I see they removed the Ford badge from the grille.
The front fairleads are the typical 1944-45 third type as used on other CMPs.
I suspect the same goes for the one with the three badges in the publicity photos and the low-res pic of what is pretty obviously a Ford F15 with a Dodge badge.

rob love · #29 23-12-18, 23:35

Dodge did put together a lot of the technical bodies, so perhaps their involvement was just the cargo box and things like the winch and fairleads.

David Dunlop · #30 24-12-18, 00:31

I would lean towards Rob’s comments that Chrysler designed and built the FAT body that was simply mated to the Ford Cab and Chassis.

As for the older posting of the Cab 13 CMP with all the people hanging out of it. Definitely not the Dodge CMP. That was part of a series of publicity shots taken to celebrate the milestone in overall CMP production. There is a complete series of those shots somewhere. For whatever reason, they shipped a Ford CMP all the way to Oshawa and the photos were taken at the GM plant there with mucky mucks from Ford, Chrysler and GM present.

David