Panther restoration (CWM)

[Wayne McGee]

Knowing that range traces come and go over time I'll track down an old 1:25000 of Pet that I'm sure is stowed in the nether reaches of my basement.
In spite of the 35 year gap I could come up with a six figure Grid Ref of the near exact spot. I distinctly remember the location as being on the edge of a pie shaped wood with an arc marker pole at the apex of the pie. The wood seperated two feild firing points and the arc marker was shared by both firing points being LoA for one and the RoA of the other.
Both impact areas reached out on to the Gust Plain.
More to follow.

Cheers

[Brad Mills]

Hey,

.50 Cal Ammo Can guy...it this the Panther you told me about when you and your buds opted to do a Recce out there one Sat night to check it out? Or was that something else you almost got in ka ka about?

[Wayne McGee]

That was a most enlightening nature walk.
Other useful tidbits gleaned from that trip;
a. an 81mm mortar bomb crater is about 12-18" across and only 2" deep and usually the whole fin assembly is left sticking out of the center of the crater. A quick look at the orientation of the fins and the fan shape of the laid down grass, that extends for several feet, you can determine the direction that the shot came from.
b. several kms out, and running perpendicular to the firing point we discovered a boundry road that was completely in dead ground from the firing point. Neatly arranged along this road was a kilometre long abandoned collumn of softskin vehicles. Faded red Duece-and-a-half fire trucks, 3/4 T SMP's, jeeps, and I'm sure there were CMP's in the mix. All these vehicles were virtually untouched, most had intact tires, glass and body work save for the odd stray 7.62 or a splash of splinters. Probably worth its weight in gold today. eh?
c. the earliest version of the HEAT-T (L19?) round for the 84mm needed a very steep angle at which to strike in order to set off the warhead (22Degs?), this resulted in a shockingly large number of un-exploded Carl G projectiles lying scattered around any tank hulk between 300-700m from the firing point. (I beleive current ammunition has cured that shortcoming.)
Anyways, it was an interesting walk, and I'm sure that there must be some sort of statute of limitations looking after me on this one anyways....right?

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

RARE is the best word for WWII German armour in Canada.

There are many stories about WWII German armour at Petwawa being buried in a big trench. That is a key reasons why the Aurora flyover was wanted. There was apparently a photo of these vehicles in the trench before being covered up, and apparently said photo was published in a local newspaper. Unfortunately so far no-one has found this photo or other solid evidence that I have heard of ... and most importantly, a location.

I believe some of the German anti-tank guns etc. at the RCA Museum in CFB Shilo have North American 1950s M-series tail lights and I was told that they were used as "enemy" pieces on exercises for awhile.

Think of Gulf War souvenir stuff. Interesting for awhile, then sometimes they get left outside to rot and eventually a base commander may order a clean-up - "get rid of that junk" - similar to what happened recently in Borden where a base commander ordered the illegal demolition of one of the rare WWI Royal Flying Corps hangers! Sadly, it DOES happen on military bases, in civic parks etc. I saved two Bofors guns that Burnaby wanted to get rid of in BC.

Rumours of armour and even buried armour exist and are SOMETIMES even true. All such stories are worth following up. I have a photo of a Sherman in USA being lifted out of its burial location. I found a Universal Carrier on Coquitlam BC that locals called a "tank". I too had heard of the Panther track section at Petawawa.

In Manitoba collectors found a bunch of buried Universal Carriers which have now been salvaged.

The Stug III that was at Currie Barracks in Calgary apparently is apparently the one that went to a US collector in the 1980s.

A couple of Goliaths (WWII German demolition mini-tank) survive. Fort Garry Horse Museum has one as does Canadian War Museum. At least those would fit in a garage! Imperial War Museum has one on display at Duxford in England along with the trailer for it as I recall. (Would have to check my photos).

The CWM's Panzer IA was traded to Jacques Littlefield in Calif in a trade that I recommended as it got 6 pieces of armour that were significant to Canada but which were totally unaffordable for CWM. The Panzer I is very rare, but not very relevant to Canada as it was obsolete by the time the majority of our army came into contact with the German army. A Ram ARV (hulk) was to be part of the deal but there was a problem and another vehicle was provided.
1. Staghound Armoured Car. (Type used by Canada).
2. Churchill tank (Type used by Canada).
3. Lee M3 tank (Type used by Canada).
4. Stuart M5A1 tank (Type used by Canada).
5. Grizzly M4A1 tank (Made in Canada). Repatriation.

The CWM still have their Panzer II.

Their Stug III (shot up on target range) is on display as a battlefield casualty as I had suggested.

The Wirbelwind flak tank at Borden - is it inside yet? It was suffering from the weather when I last saw it years ago. What other German WWII armour is in Canada? I think I heard of another Stug III.

I think it was Farley Mowatt who said we should have Tigers and Panthers as our war memorials instad of Shermans, so people could see and remember what our troops fought against.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens
A Ram ARV (hulk) was to be part of the deal but there was a problem and another vehicle was provided.

You have mentioned this before. The only Ram ARV hulk I know of is in the possession of the Royal Netherlands Army. I know for sure because I discovered it and advised them to save it from one of their ranges (mind you, it mainly has curiosity value as it was fully stripped to be used as a pillbox, and then shot up). Somehow, it surprises me someone is offering something in exchange that isn't theirs!

By the way, instead of hunting down German tanks, I wonder when a Canadian will finally bother to recover the two Ram tanks at Borden and Meaford. From these at least one Ram Kangaroo could be restored. There are running Panthers and Tigers, but no running Ram tanks anywhere in the world. So the word RARE is more applicable to the latter . . .

H.


source

[Ed Storey]

Yes, I recall seeing a Panther on one of the ranges in Petawawa while training with the infantry Reserves in 1979. In the early 1980s there were also sections of Panther track wrapped around two badly shot up Ram Hulls at Pacquette Landing. The track was recovered by the CWM, I do though have photographs of the two Rams and the Pather track.

Back in the 1960s and early 1970s there was a fine assortment of vehicles on the various ranges, many of which lasted well into the early 1980s. Again as a young infantry reservist I well remember the wheels to the German 88 Gun that is on display on base sat out on the range on the Mattawa Plain as a target, as was the front dolly wheel to the German 150mm Howitzer that is also on display on the base. There were once at least 4 Valentines as well as WWI Gemran 7.7cm Howitzers and some very strange WWIish Ammunition Limbers sitting on the range, again all as targets. Funny thing is that the 88 wheels sat for years in one of the vehicle compounds on base, I guess until someone thought that they would best be served by being shot at by C2 LMGs.

There was even a Valentine hidden deep in the woods behind the old 'Jungle Trail' off of the Mattawa Plain. It was badly 'recovered' from the training area by the military in the mid-1980s, but I am unsure where it eventually ended up.

Here are some target images from the early 1980s.

[Bob Cohoon]

It looks like Wayne McGee may have the best bet at locating the burial point of these vehicles.Just like in Halifax, a U-boat was hauled out of the harbour after the war and scuttled nearby,just to get it out of sight,I would guess,as it probably evoked bad memories,being so soon after the war`s end.If a tiger was in that batch,that would be a find.I am surprised that one was not brought back, as there were many encountered at Caen, Falaise,etc. I would think one would have been brought back for analysis.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Ram ARV: Hanno - I do not know the details of the proposed arrangement. I doubt that Mr. Littlefield would offer someone else's vehicle unless he felt he could acquire it.

Ram - We had heard a rumour of a Ram tank buried in BC but an eyewitness has been found and they said it was a stripped down Sherman hull. The army is working aith a group to possibly salvage it and trade it for parts the army needs for a Sherman restoration.

When the Canadian War Museum was still in Vimy House, Jim Whitham was working on their Ram to try to get it restored ... but he is just one man (with a bit of volunteer help) so he is grossly overloaded, understaffed and underfunded.

We have a Ram tank in Vancouver, BC in front of the Beatty Street Drill Hall (which is right beside Stadium SkyTrain station for anyone visiting Vancouver - and there is a Sherman there too)


My 1944 Willys MB jeep butting heads with the Ram.

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/armour.htm




COLIN

[Wayne McGee]

Found an old Petawawa map, and located the site of where I beleive I crawled over the remains of a Ausf A or G Panther in July or August of 1972.
I tried to use the "sattellite only imagery" from Google Maps to help me see the ground as exists today. The map I used is; CFB Petawawa, Scale 1:25000, Sheet Edition 7 MCE 35, Current as of 1970, Printed 1973.
The location as near as I can determine is GR17898851 approx 100m NORTH of the Brindle Rd on the Gust Plain.
Approx 350m WSW is a Horizontal Control Point with an elev of 516' AMSL Which I beleive was the location of the 1972 LoA/RoA marker pole.
My 1973 map shows only scattered trees to the N of the Brindle, but I'm quite certain that there was a straight as an arrow tree line down the Left side of the range to the LoA marker. The Panther was tucked ass first into that tree line
Google, as expected, shows a different picture. To start with, I have little experience intrepreting photos, so I'll stand by to be corrected.
What I see is a Mechanical Target Range (?) immediately SOUTH, and adjoining to, the Brindle Rd. It appears to have 7 firing points attached to a parking lot, with the first tgts set at 300m and every 100m out to 1300m (seems like an odd set up?) At the bank of mechanical tgts set at 600m go NW, approx 100m across the Brindle to the Grid listed above.....and start diggin'.
I would like to think that you could go out there, map in hand, and trip over the muzzle brake attached to a long buried Panther, but come on guys, lets keep it real, OK?
Even if you could find something more than a 35 yr old oil stain on the ground, that would be a good start. Personally I would like nothing better than to go on a little yomp around the trg area peeking under bushes looking for panthers. If only to remind me how much I hated "Peta-Nam".

Cheers

(feed back please)

[Bob Cohoon]

With this data, I am sure an attempt can be made to locate these vehicles, if they were put there.If a newspaper printed a picture, it sure seems like that`s what happened.Maybe the CWM may get interested in this,if it was put to them, and this would lend credibility to the search. A 1972 map of the area is sure the ticket to help find this, along with people`s memories of the event.This is how the early model T-34 was found in a russian bog ( covered in another Forum story),as a person in a nearby village remembered it from the war.

[Ed Storey]

The CWM has just finishing restoring the Panther that used to reside on outside display in CFB Borden. Here are some photographs as it was in Borden and how it now looks in the Lebreton Gallery of the CWM.

[Rob Dyba]

I have heard a Panzer III or IV lies buried under the runways of Sydney International airport- can anyone confirm...

Rob

[Bob Cohoon]

I am sure this Panther will add a lot to the already excellent display in the CWM gallery, and looks like an excellent job was done on it.There is a small story on it on the internet which says it was in a VE day display in Toronto at the end of the war, and then was moved to CFB Borden. Its original unit is unknown apparently,as no markings survived .Possibly some archival photos may exist when it was captured,but this would take some looking.Again, I really hope the other Ontario Panther is not forgotten, as this could be restored,possibly by another museum/volunteers.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

The CWM does have a photo of this Panther, apparently as it arrived at Borden after WWII. One of the CWM staff has this family photo and it shows the number (I saw it but did not make a note of the number) on the turret and the German white cross on left rear of turret, overpainted with a white Allied star.

I asked Jim Whitham at CWM why they had not painted it in those markings and he replied that they are still researching the vehicle's history. Once they have finished the research, they can add the markings.

The Toronto VE-Day display is a great clue as there were likely hundreds of photos taken of it, (presuming it is the same one - that needs to be verified but considering we only seem to have had two Panthers in Canada the task should be easier.) both for newspapers and for private albums, maybe even CBC TV. Also newspaper stories which might tell of its capture. OK Toronto sleuths - go check out the newspaper morques and the City archives! Once we have lots of views of markings - hopefullty some in colour, the CWM may be able to identify the vehicle's unit, and then where and when it was captured.

By the way there is a bit of battle damage on it on one side just above the track, but minor.


So ... did it run out of fuel or sugffer a break-down or ??? A puzzle ... maybe we can solve it.

Also ... how about some photos of the Petawawa Panther folks? I visited Petawawa a couple of months ago but only had time to view the Ferrets in detail and the ex-Borden Staghound. No stomping around the boonies!

More CWM Panther photos on my web site at:
Colin Stevens' page with CWM vehicle photos



COLIN STEVENS
Richmond, BC

[Jordan Baker]

Found this article. Perhaps it can help. The link goes to a PDF

http://collections.civilisations.ca/...hp?irn=5081860

[Bob Cohoon]

I made a mistake on the VE day,as, in checking, it was VE day celebrations on Sparks street in Ottawa, and the date was May 8, 1945.This is per a current report posted on the panther on the internet.Ottawa archives may have photos ,as the date is known. I saw the Panther this past week-end, and an excellent job has been done on it,with a realistic paintwork and carefully applied zimmerit.The rear hull storage boxes and exhaust pipes have been re-created,as well as the hull mounted equipment.It still needs an mG34 in the ball mount, though,so a little looking is needed to find one to put there. From looking in a window to the restoration area, it seems that a lot of attention is being put on a Ram tank .This tank really needs new boggie wheel rubber,as there is none left,a when seen on display in past years.Hopefully the CWM can locate some better wheels for it.

[Stew Robertson]

This is the one that did not belong the the rest of the collection, and now I am trying to figure out where it went To the best of my knowledge I think it went to the states ( maybe Freds Place) but not sure.
I am just trying to put my pictures together for my album
Stew

[peter simundson]

I think it went to Ropke for a half track and another vehicle.

Peter S

[Stew Robertson]

It wasn't a halftrack unless my brain is fried but that could be !
I kinda thought that is where it went
Thanks Peter:
Stew
PS I knew that is where the Yale and the Prussion gun went

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some more background on one of Farley Mowat's war trophy's, a Sturmgeschütz III. What I found interesting to read is that it was captured in the Amsterdam area, close to my home town.

Sturmgeschütz III, CFB Shilo, Manitoba, 1973. According to documentation compiled May -Oct 1945 and filed by Captain Farley Mowat with the Historical Section in Ottawa, registered in the Archives 10 Sep 1946, this vehicle is identified as Item 4 on Page 12 as a 7.5-cm StuG 40 (L-43) Assault Gun mounted on a Mk. III tank chassis. This "specimen had been assigned to the defence of Amsterdam but did not come into action there. It was recovered from the Germans after surrender, by the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada." Specimen Data: 1. Identity: Fahrgestall (Engine) No. 96105, Gun No. R540. This vehicle was in running order when shipped to Canada.



This StuG III was one of two located at CFB Shilo up through the 1970s. It was loaned to a museum in Calgary, but later sold to an American collector who restored it to running condition using an. engine from a firetruck. It was recently shipped to England, where it is shown here undergoing restoraton for a Museum in Belgium.



A second StuG had been out in the range area at CFB Shilo as a location marker, identity unknown. It appears to have gone back to Germany in exchange for the German Jagdpanzer Kanone 90-mm Tank Destroyer shown on this website.

Source: http://silverhawkauthor.com/armoured...itoba_434.html

[Alex van de Wetering]

It was recently shipped to England, where it is shown here undergoing restoraton for a Museum in Belgium.

I think it was featured in one of the UK or French MV magazines some months ago and I think the restro was finished in the meantime.

[Tim Lovelock]

Originally Posted by Rob Dyba

I have heard a Panzer III or IV lies buried under the runways of Sydney International airport- can anyone confirm...

Hi Rob,

That's a mystery to solve. On a different note, I worked with a fellow many years ago in the airport fire service who related his sadness in using the last RAAF Liberator (my memory is vague ?Halifax) bombers as fire fighting training aids, but hey the Cerberus monitor is all but gone off the coast at black rock (correct me if I'm wrong, but the only one of its kind) but that's what we do with our history it seems.
I'm glad there are people out there with the will and means to recover and restore what they can. Cheers

[eddy8men]

what happened to this Canadian panther

[Alex van de Wetering]

what happened to this Canadian panther

It was shot to bits ? Sorry Rick. Panther does look sorry in the pic!


STUG

I think it was featured in one of the UK or French MV magazines some months ago and I think the restro was finished in the meantime

Found the article. It was in "Vehicules Militaires magazine" no. 63 and shows several pics of the restoration by the Weald foundation (former Sdkfz foundation). The article does mention it was recovered from Holland by Farley Mowat and as far as I am able to decipher it was found intact at an Army base near Amsterdam. Article is written by John Blackman, so might have been published in a British mag as well.


picture attached from Weald Foundation website. Source: https://www.wealdfoundation.org

Video of it running: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-KMLw7B4AM

(sounds like they refitted an original Maybach?)
Alex

[maple_leaf_eh]

Swiped from a conversation on George Bradford's AFV News site. My naming technique puts the date as both 1989 and 1991. One is wrong. The story line is a US jumper was on an exchange leap and when he landed he was perplexed by the sight of oddly familiar armour. He had a small camera and snapped two pictures. One has already been posted.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Short article on the Weald Foundation’s StuG, acknowledging the fact it is the one captured by Farley Mowat:

https://www.wealdfoundation.org/Insi...ley-Mowat-StuG