Vehicles used by Dutch Prinses Irene Brigade

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Interesting picture Hanno. That seems to be one of the British 3rd Infantry Division LCT's that landed at Sword beach.

Hi Alex,

If it does show the Prinses Irene Brigade coming ashore, it would mean they had Bedford MW's on strength. As far as I know the Brigade was equipped with Fordson 15-cwt trucks. Do you know if they had Bedford 15-cwt trucks also?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

If it does show the Prinses Irene Brigade coming ashore, it would mean they had Bedford MW's on strength. As far as I know the Brigade was equipped with Fordson 15-cwt trucks. Do you know if they had Bedford 15-cwt trucks also?

Hanno, I don't know for sure if they had Bedford MW's in service. Some pictures show 15cwt GS trucks from the rear and make if hard to determine if they are Fordsons, Bedfords or even Morris Commercial. Just like you I thought they had Fordson WOT2's (and a WOT3 which is shown on one of the pictures in the national archive). But, they did have Beford QL's as well, so logistically wise, it wouldn't be too strange to have some Bedford MW's on strength. Below is picture from the National Archives, which shows a 15cwt, supposedly from the Irene Brigade......Can anyone ID the truck....maybe the rear axle?

source: http://beeldbank.nationaalarchief.nl/

Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Can anyone ID the truck

Do I see a split rear axle differential? From this grainy picture I would not wager to ID a vehicle. But the tow hook is the typical British one, leaving Fordson, Morris-Commercial or Bedford to choose from . . .

I´m sure one of the MLU members has a census listing from which one will be able to deduct what type of truck Z4846358 was.

On the TWENOT forum, I read the Dutch were allocated the census number block 1283563 to 1288562. However, these must have been supposed to be allocated to their own vehicles. I´m pretty sure those supplied by the British War Department were meant not to be renumbered.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Going slightly off topic, but interesting pic. Reportedly showing Bedford MW from Prinses Irene Brigade coming ashore in Normandy (via KTR list).

The Nationaal Archief contains the same picture with the same caption:

Beschrijving: Koninklijke Nederlandse Brigade Prinses Irene. Landing in Normandië
Datum: augustus 1944
Trefwoorden: tweede wereldoorlog|leger|militairen|invasies, Prinses Irene Brigade, Frankrijk|Normandië
Collectie: Collectie Anefo / Londen
Fotograaf: RVD
Fotonummer: 934-9670

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

On the TWENOT forum, I read the Dutch were allocated the census number block 1283563 to 1288562. However, these must have been supposed to be allocated to their own vehicles. I´m pretty sure those supplied by the British War Department were meant not to be renumbered.

Fordson 7V L1284657 was clearly allocated a number from this block (source: www.arnhemsoorlogsmuseum.com)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

If it does show the Prinses Irene Brigade coming ashore, it would mean they had Bedford MW's on strength.

And here is another picture showing the Prinses Irene Brigade had Bedford MW's on strength. This is an early open cabbed one, typical for the hodge-podge of hand-me-down vehicles they were equipped with.



Source: www.gemeentearchief.denhaag.nl

Intocht van de Prinses Irenebrigade, Bezuidenhoutseweg bij het ministeriegebouw
Fotonummer: 6.00303
Fotograaf: Schrama, J.M.G., 101/4
Datum: ex. 8 mei 1945
1 zwartwitfoto 18 x 24 cm

[Rogier Peeters]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

If it does show the Prinses Irene Brigade coming ashore, it would mean they had Bedford MW's on strength. As far as I know the Brigade was equipped with Fordson 15-cwt trucks. Do you know if they had Bedford 15-cwt trucks also?

Though not reflecting the 1944 situation, the Dutch National Archives have a list of the present used in 1943 (Opgave Auto- en Motormaterieel, 26 Maart 1943).

The following 15 cwt vehicle types are listed:
- truck 15 cwt, 4x2 GS Ford
- Fordson 15 cwt;
- Morris 15 cwt office;
- Bedford 15 cwt.

[Bill Murray]

My eyes are not improving with age, but is that not a Dodge, maybe a D30 behind the Bedford?
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bill Murray

My eyes are not improving with age, but is that not a Dodge, maybe a D30 behind the Bedford?

Still not too bad, Bill. A Dodge indeed, I'd say a D60L 3-tonner.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Rogier Peeters

Though not reflecting the 1944 situation, the Dutch National Archives have a list of the present used in 1943 (Opgave Auto- en Motormaterieel, 26 Maart 1943).

The following 15 cwt vehicle types are listed:
- truck 15 cwt, 4x2 GS Ford
- Fordson 15 cwt;
- Morris 15 cwt office;
- Bedford 15 cwt.

Great info Rogier, thanks!

Is the "truck 15 cwt, 4x2 GS Ford" a CMP?

Any more vehicular info available at the Archives?

Regards,
Hanno

[Rich Payne]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Do I see a split rear axle differential? From this grainy picture I would not wager to ID a vehicle. But the tow hook is the typical British one, leaving Fordson, Morris-Commercial or Bedford to choose from . . .

I´m sure one of the MLU members has a census listing from which one will be able to deduct what type of truck Z4846358 was.

Just noticed that no one has answered this.

Z4844001 - Z4847000 - Ford - Truck 15cwt 4x2 G/S

Rich

[Rogier Peeters]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Still not too bad, Bill. A Dodge indeed, I'd say a D60L 3-tonner.

The archive document I mentioned before lists Dodge 3 ton trucks as well.

Some photos:
http://www.nederlandsfotomuseum.nl/c...elf,1/lang,nl/
http://www.nederlandsfotomuseum.nl/c...elf,1/lang,nl/

@Hanno: the vehicle list contains the types of vehicles, including census number, chassis number and allocation.
Also lists of ex-Dutch vehicles are available in the archives.

[Rogier Peeters]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Is the "truck 15 cwt, 4x2 GS Ford" a CMP?

I don't know.

Could this be another of the 15 cwt Ford GS trucks, judging from the (partially visible) census number: http://www.nederlandsfotomuseum.nl/c...elf,1/lang,nl/

If so, it may be this vehicle (note the cyclist and the trailer behind the truck): http://www.nederlandsfotomuseum.nl/c...elf,1/lang,nl/

Any thoughts?

[Alex van de Wetering]

Any thoughts?

Indeed, the trucks in both pictures seem to be one and the same; there is a jerrycan just behind the cab which can be seen in both pictures. Clearly a Fordson, with a German (?) trailer on tow (Flak trailer with kastenaufbau?)

Great info, Rogier!

Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

Just noticed that no one has answered this.

Z4844001 - Z4847000 - Ford - Truck 15cwt 4x2 G/S

Thanks Rich!

Interestingly, the picture shows a Fordson, but the census number range was allocated to Ford trucks

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Rogier Peeters

@Hanno: the vehicle list contains the types of vehicles, including census number, chassis number and allocation.
Also lists of ex-Dutch vehicles are available in the archives.

Rogier,

Do you have access to this information? If so, would you be willing to share this with us? If not, do you have the archive record number?

Thanks!
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Rogier Peeters

Could this be another of the 15 cwt Ford GS trucks, judging from the (partially visible) census number: http://www.nederlandsfotomuseum.nl/c...elf,1/lang,nl/

If so, it may be this vehicle (note the cyclist and the trailer behind the truck): http://www.nederlandsfotomuseum.nl/c...elf,1/lang,nl/

Rogier,

As pointed out by you and Alex, these pictures feature a Fordson WOT2 15-cwt truck. The first picture shows a Fordson with a census number Z4846x87, one which falls in the range Z4844001 - Z4847000 quoted by Rich. As these were allocated to "Ford - Truck 15cwt 4x2 G/S" trucks, could be the case that the "Ford" and "Fordson" trucks in your list of 15-cwt vehicle types were both Fordson WOT2's?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

On the TWENOT forum, I read the Dutch were allocated the census number block 1283563 to 1288562.

Here's an example of a Chevrolet PAG-trekker, one of reportedly only two which were shipped to the UK by retreating Dutch troops (via Dunkirk, Brest?).
It has been assigned "L1284684" and is shown while use in training in the UK in 1940. (Surely the "L" is a mistake, a utility vehicle / light truck like this should have been assigned either an "M" or "Z".)

Ref: The Great DAF PAG-trekker thread!, picture source: http://www.prinsesirenebrigade.nl/

[Rich Payne]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

It has been assigned "L1284648" and is shown while use in training in the UK in 1940. (Surely the "L" is a mistake, a utility vehicle / light truck like this should have been assigned either an "M" or "Z".)

Perhaps the vehicle still had a luggage compartment full of peanut butter when it was put on the weighbridge and this brought it above the 1 ton mark ?

I have had a quick flick through the re-printed Chilwell census lists and can see no trace of 'Fordson'. It looks as if for contract purposes, the supplier was always Ford.

[Rogier Peeters]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Rogier,

Do you have access to this information? If so, would you be willing to share this with us? If not, do you have the archive record number?

I did make some notes, but I did not write all census numbers down. I will present the information I have at hand and will include references to the files in the archives.

In the beforementioned 'opgave auto- en motormaterieel' (Nationaal Archief Toegangsnummer 2.13.71 - Inv.No. 855) the following vehicle types are mentioned (dated 26 March 1943):
- Humber C1.I truck
- Leyland
- F.A. Guy tractor
- Humber utility command car
- 3" mortar carrier
- carrier OP Mk.III
- truck 15 cwt 4x2 GS Ford
- lorry 30 cwt 4x2 GS Ford
- lorry 4x2 anti-tank portee Chevrolet
- lorry 3-T 4x4 Troop carrier Bedford D
- trailer 15 cwt
- car 2-str 4x2 utility Austin
- BSA 500 cc solo class I
- ambulance 4 str 4x2 Austin
- Humber Pullman
- Austin Ten
- Bedford 3 ton
- Ford 4/6 ton
- Ford Utility WOA2
- Dodge 3 ton
- Austin 3 ton
- GMC GS-truck 30 cwt
- Fordson 15 cwt
- BSA 500 cc S/V
- Norton S/V contr 7363 244 cc
- Morris 15 cwt office
- Bedford 15 cwt
- Morris 8 cwt 5 str
- Austin Utility 4 str
- Austin Ten util
- Austrin 30 cwt

ex-Dutch vehicles will follow.

[Rogier Peeters]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

As pointed out by you and Alex, these pictures feature a Fordson WOT2 15-cwt truck. The first picture shows a Fordson with a census number Z4846x87, one which falls in the range Z4844001 - Z4847000 quoted by Rich. As these were allocated to "Ford - Truck 15cwt 4x2 G/S" trucks, could be the case that the "Ford" and "Fordson" trucks in your list of 15-cwt vehicle types were both Fordson WOT2's?

Thank you for the clarification. Regarding your question, it would be interesting to compare the census numbers (which I don't have at hand at the moment) in the archive files with the other information known.
I'll leave that as an interesting little thing for one of my future visits.

[Rogier Peeters]

For the ex-Dutch vehicles see the attached notes. I hope my writing is readable.
These data are from another file, Nationaal Archief 2.13.71 - Inv.No. 814.

Contents:
dutch1of3.jpg
- trucks: make - engine power - Dutch registration number - new registration number - engine number - load capacity

dutch2of3.jpg
- one truck
- pag-trekkers: make - Dutch registration number - engine number
- some (not all) motorcycles with engine numbers
- cars: type - engine power - Dutch number - engine number - number of seats

dutch3of3.jpg
- four cars
- buses: type - engine power - Durch number - engine number - number of seats

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

Perhaps the vehicle still had a luggage compartment full of peanut butter when it was put on the weighbridge and this brought it above the 1 ton mark ?

Nah, must 'ave been Gouda cheese!

I have had a quick flick through the re-printed Chilwell census lists and can see no trace of 'Fordson'. It looks as if for contract purposes, the supplier was always Ford.

Check!

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Rogier Peeters

I did make some notes, but I did not write all census numbers down. I will present the information I have at hand and will include references to the files in the archives.

In the beforementioned 'opgave auto- en motormaterieel' (Nationaal Archief Toegangsnummer 2.13.71 - Inv.No. 855) the following vehicle types are mentioned (dated 26 March 1943):

Thank you, Rogier! What an astounding hodge-podge of vehicles. . .

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Rogier Peeters

For the ex-Dutch vehicles see the attached notes. I hope my writing is readable.

And thanks again!!!
I am surprised they managed to ship so many vehicles over to the UK. Did these all come through Dunkirk, Brest etc.? Or were vehicles shipped over from The Netherlands directly?

Thanks,
Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Record cards for immediate pre-war Fordsons that I have copies of show "Ford". Contra that the pre-war WD Trials reports refer to "Ford" and "Fordson" as appropriate. Arguably all commercial Fords were Fordsons up until....well the Thames branding around 1955. Of course Fordson Thames had been introduced slightly earlier..wasn't the post-war 7V a Fordson Thames 7V?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno, I have often wondered the same thing and never seen anything. I was amazed that before the invasion a certain high-up GM manager sailed across the Channel and thence to Belgium and Netherlands before crossing the border with Germany near Aachen. The cross-Channels clearly carried on running for carrying approved civvies.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Below is picture from the National Archives, which shows a 15cwt, supposedly from the Irene Brigade......Can anyone ID the truck....maybe the rear axle?

Here's a better picture of Z4846358 from the new NIOD BeeldbankWO2.nl:

Image number: 8696
Collection: Nederlands Instituut voor Oorlogsdocumentatie
Caption: Dutch forces in Normandy. Air protection is provided by the defense platoon.

Edited to attach larger scan and updated link to source:

Beschrijving: Koninklijke Nederlandse Brigade Prinses Irene.
Landing in Normandië [luchtafweergeschut gemonteerd op een vrachtwagen. Een soldaat wast zijn haren]
Datum augustus 1944
Locatie Frankrijk, Normandië
Nummer toegang 2.24.01.03
Bestanddeelnummer 934-9669


Source: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/ad84e3...8-003048976d84

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Rogier Peeters

The archive document I mentioned before lists Dodge 3 ton trucks as well.

Here's one being (un)loaded. Source: beeldbankwo2.nl:

Image number: 8728
Collection: Nederlands Instituut voor Oorlogsdocumentatie
Caption: Dutch forces in Normandy. A Dutch lorry being loaded on to a landing craft.
Image Date Period: augustus 1944

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Going slightly off topic, but interesting pic. Reportedly showing Bedford MW from Prinses Irene Brigade coming ashore in Normandy (via KTR list).

Another PIB vehicle, in this case a Fordson WOT2 coming ashore in Normandy, showing some of the vehicle markings.

Image number: 8746
Collection: Nederlands Instituut voor Oorlogsdocumentatie
Caption: Dutch transport coming ashore.
Image Date Period: augustus 1944