65 years ago today

Funny thing, I posted this hours ago and hasn't appeared, so, sorry if it pops up twice.

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7404052.stm

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7404447.stm

R.

I watched the clips and read the stories. Amazing!!!

Thanks for posting this history for those like me who didn't know about this.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Richard Notton

Funny thing, I posted this hours ago and hasn't appeared, so, sorry if it pops up twice.

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7404052.stm

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7404447.stm

R.

Thanks for bringing this up..W/C Guy Gibson the leader was highly Decorated and had many bombing missions under his belt...175 missions or more..
He Had the V.C..DFC and Bar..DSO and Bar..and he was killed in Action in 1943 when his Mossie ran out of fuel over occupied territory..he was just 26 years old..
Joe McCarthy was an American who joined up in the RCAF before the US got into the war..He was also highly decorated and after the war stayed on in the RCAF ..He was my CO in Clinton and it was amazing to watch a living legend on parade..His gongs would knock your eyes out.
Just a war story from a long time ago..

Well, firstly Karmy I'm surprised you haven't seen the B&W film of the raid, but the story is as well known to any 6yr old schoolboy here as Robin Hood and King Arthur. Its part of the folklore and psyche of the British people.

Anyway, let me be a bit controversial and make a few observations about the dam raids and maybe start a useful discussion with some different insights from abroad.

Be aware I'm not decrying the skill or bravery of the aircrews, or being in anyway disrespectful, but perhaps their efforts were somewhat minimised by policy from above.

Firstly it suggests to me that there was a serious flaw in Harris's command, we had shown with this raid, (albeit costly on crews) and the Mosquito attacks on jails and valve (toob for the N.Americans) factories that absolute precision could be obtained and at a level that today's smart bombs can just achieve.

However, Harris continued to flatten housing estates and cities, not until much later in the war did someone finally take control of him and insist on military and manufacturing targets. Albert Speer records being only mildly worried about British bombing but very concerned with the US effort which did impinge on manufacture of essential material.

It would seem that even Mr Churchill had no control over Harris and good job we won or else perhaps Harris would have been on trial too.

So the dams; was this a useful contribution to the war effort, or a propaganda/morale boosting exercise; certainly it came at a time when the British public desperately needed something to cheer about and Mr Churchill desperately needed to keep them on-side.

Incidentally, do not view the popular and offered image of Churchill as a kindly and rotund old uncle; he was as crafty as a cart load of monkeys, devious, manipulating, bombastic, dictatorial and the match of Hitler and Joe Stalin put together.

Just the right man for the job.

After all the effort put in by Barnes Wallis, knowing that explosive containment was the key to breaching the dams, we wonder why bouncing bombs were also simply thrown against the Sorpe dam. This structure being a massive earthwork and also flexible therefore, I'm sure Wallis's mathematics showed this to be futile.

In fact the Sorpe, because of this construction, and being shallower than the other conventional dams would probably need a Grand Slam very precisely placed to be at risk and failing a nuclear strike it would be impossible to place such a device correctly today even with a guidance head.

As for the other two, the damage to the German war industry, and some agriculture, was actually minimal in the cold light of day. Albert Speer had it all repaired and working in 3 months.

Why did we never follow-up with either Mosquito nuisance raids or a regular bombing run every few weeks to continually disrupt the repair work?

Could it be that the low strategic value of the dams raid was known beforehand and that further effort was nugatory suggesting that the whole plan was a propaganda mission but veiled under the pretence of war shortening industrial damage?

I don't know, but something doesn't exactly add up.

The only lasting effect of the raid was the manufacturing effort of a heap of AA guns and the deployment of some 11,000 teenagers and old men to man AA defences around these and other dams in Germany, and that isn't a very good trade for the men and material we put into the original raid.

I can imagine someone rushed into Albert Speer's in the early hours and said:

"Al, wake up, those bloody British have blown a hole in the Mohne and Eder dams."

"Bugger. . . . . . ." "I'll get some brickies with a bit of scaffolding down there tomorrow afternoon."

That's being a tad flippant but you get the idea.

So, dear reader, was the dams raid the success it is made out to be, and to consider that we really need to know what the real objective was, but no one in the know is saying or indeed alive now.

It certainly was in the discharge of the specific task given to RAF Bomber Command, but in the greater scope of things, you decide.

R.

Originally Posted by Richard Notton

Well, firstly Karmy I'm surprised you haven't seen the B&W film of the raid, but the story is as well known to any 6yr old schoolboy here as Robin Hood and King Arthur. Its part of the folklore and psyche of the British people.
R.

Hello Master R.,

As you know I've been very distracted by some very serious things in the wind and most problematic serious disabling flaring all over that doesn't let me do a lot these days, including computer for more than brief sits, and THAT, or THOSE things, are my apologetic excuses for not replying to you sooner. Sorry!

Very interesting post you did and I will read it again when I can absorb stuff ... and as to me not having seen the B&W, maybe I did, maybe I didn't, as a kid in school. I really can't remember, and I was a grade 9 dropout (unintentional to drop out) and when in school I swung between absolute failure of subjects to A+'s in most subjects, all dependent on what was happening with me wee bitty life I s'pose. School took a back seat often. So again ... maybe I was taught some of that history, but I don't recall. Maybe other Canadians can remember if those things were shown and taught in the 60's and chime in here

What a weird reply, huh? Oh well ... MLU-ers are used to my "strangeness" by now

Karmy

Originally Posted by Vets Dottir 2nd

Hello Master R.,

As you know I've been very distracted by some very serious things in the wind and most problematic serious disabling flaring all over that doesn't let me do a lot these days, including computer for more than brief sits, and THAT, or THOSE things, are my apologetic excuses for not replying to you sooner. Sorry!

Not at all, you're doing almost too well and too much perhaps, I think most of us know of the debilitating condition.

Very interesting post you did and I will read it again when I can absorb stuff ... and as to me not having seen the B&W, maybe I did, maybe I didn't, as a kid in school.

Well the film was made in 1955 and I expect it got an airing in Canada, don't know about in school though!!!

Out of interest Karmy, IIRC the actual air crews and pilots of the specially formed 617 squadron were perhaps 25% Canadian. The late Ken Brown, for one, springs to mind and the only Dambuster with an all NCO crew, a fact which made Ken rightfully proud.

R.

Originally Posted by Richard Notton

Not at all, you're doing almost too well and too much perhaps, I think most of us know of the debilitating condition.

My doc, and my current states even more disabling problems, are finally bringing home to me just how very advanced and serious a case I've got goin' on here. I really feel, big time, for ANYONE going through stuff like this and wish I could stop it for all. Gotta hold on to stoic I guess

Well the film was made in 1955 and I expect it got an airing in Canada, don't know about in school though!!!

That would be the year I turned one year old! My earlieat memory is age two and a half and I don't recall the flick I remember being a kid though and TV movies almost all seemed to usually be war movies. That and westerns, musicals, and hockey hockey hockey hockey hockey

Out of interest Karmy, IIRC the actual air crews and pilots of the specially formed 617 squadron were perhaps 25% Canadian. The late Ken Brown, for one, springs to mind and the only Dambuster with an all NCO crew, a fact which made Ken rightfully proud.

R.

Thanks for that info Richard I value all soldiers from any country (except evil agendas ones against the rest of us ) but Canadian involvements are special of course, me being Canadian and having relatives served ... and sacrificed.

Karmy.

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Richard Notton

Incidentally, do not view the popular and offered image of Churchill as a kindly and rotund old uncle; he was as crafty as a cart load of monkeys, devious, manipulating, bombastic, dictatorial and the match of Hitler and Joe Stalin put together.

Just the right man for the job.


R.

Getting off topic a tad . I recently heard a radio interview with a well known UK author of WW2 history... He changed my mind totally on Churchill. He was not a good strategist, lets face it .. the Dardenelles and Greece were not by any measure , good ideas.

But , during early 1940, he had been PM for two weeks .. a huge critical decision was to be made.. Five people ..only 5 , yes 5, would decide the fate of the free world . Churchill, Lord Halifax, Chamberlain ,Attlee and some other guy were locked away and they debated .. do we go for appeasement and terms or do we fight til the death... Guess what, four of them wanted and strongly argued for appeasement and a truce , of course under German terms ... Churchill was the only desenter of the five .... fight on til the last . It was that close ..he held the fort alone .

Mike