Australian CGT mystery

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

These are the two known data plates off 2-pounder Portees:

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-40
SERIAL 1844031433
ENGINE 3757180 BODY SERIAL blank [? WAS THERE ONE?]
TRIM XR PAINT F.C.98

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-40x2
SERIAL 1844031825
ENGINE 3742886 BODY SERIAL blank [? WAS THERE ONE?]
TRIM XR PAINT F.C.98

S/M 2028
MFD. Nov 21 1941


Compare with C-GT # 12 Cab:

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-40
SERIAL 1844025305
ENGINE 3742940 BODY SERIAL 2478
TRIM XR PAINT F.C.98


Then we have the later plate design:

VEHICLE MODEL C60441-M-FAT-4

CHASSIS MODEL C60441-M-W
CAB MODEL 13
CHASSIS SERIAL 3844033748
ENGINE SERIAL PR 3971863
ORDER NO. LV 1798
DATE OF MFG APR 7-44

VEHICLE MODEL C60441-M-FAT-4

CHASSIS MODEL C-60441-M-W
CAB 13
CHASSIS SERIAL 3844031469
ENGINE PR3947470
ORDER NUMBER LV1798
DATE OF MFG FEB 23-44
PUBLICATIONS TAG: C-60441-FAT-4 and MAINTENANCE MANUAL TAG: C-GT-02 MB-02.


and using the DND's nomenclature, that makes the 1943-4 Model CGTs a 3-tonner! Now, why did I not think of checking the designation before??? I have yet to find plates off 1940, 1941 and 1942 CGTs.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
using the DND's nomenclature, that makes the 1943-4 Model CGTs a 3-tonner!

Great find, but it does not answer Rod's question:

Does anyone know exactly what the differences are between the CGT and F15A chassis?

In Is the FAT a 60cwt or 15cwt truck? we were stuck at the point that Tony compared the FGT and F15A spares manuals and found what little differences there are between the two. As for the CGT: I can only bolster a Chevrolet CGT Spare Parts List - what we need is someone with a C15A Spare Parts List to compare the numbers. Yes, it's anorak time!

H.

[Tony Smith]

So the 1944 C-GT (8440 chassis) was a 60cwt, and so therefore too were the earlier 12 cab C-GT's and 42 cab Portees which also sat on the 8440 chassis! The 30cwt portees based on a C30 truck are therefore "Lightweights"!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
So the 1944 C-GT (8440 chassis) was a 60cwt

Well yes, but was the vehicle rated at 60-cwt because of the heavier running gear, or was the chassis beefier than the 15-cwt? I'm asking because some sources state the CGT chassis has double chassis rails, while others state it doesn't.

H.

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Well yes, but was the vehicle rated at 60-cwt because of the heavier running gear, or was the chassis beefier than the 15-cwt? I'm asking because some sources state the CGT chassis has double chassis rails, while others state it doesn't.

I haven't seen one with double chassis rails - it seems to be the same as a C15A (and indeed all the CGT9s here are C15A-based).
Only difference is of course the winch, 2 speed transfer case and low-speed diffs to suit the 20" tyres.

[Tony Smith]

Just got an e-mail from one of my bloodhounds in New Zealand. They've turned up another Portee. That makes seven now! This one is unusual in that it still retains the rear body from conversion to a GS truck, all the others have had some kind of Civvie/Commercial flat deck fitted. No data details yet, but rest assured it is being sought.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Tony, I am fascinated...I wonder if we can find out whether this was a NZ conversion or whether this was carried out in the UK? I assumed that all the Portees that arrived were ex-Mid East and arrived as built.

[cliff]

I also have this pic from the 1980's taken in the northern region of the North Island. No data plate info sorry.


(first posted in Is the FAT a 60cwt or 15cwt truck?)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
I haven't seen one with double chassis rails - it seems to be the same as a C15A (and indeed all the CGT9s here are C15A-based).
Only difference is of course the winch, 2 speed transfer case and low-speed diffs to suit the 20" tyres.

That ties in with Tony's findings on the differences between the FGT and F15A:

Originally posted by Tony Smith in Is the FAT a 60cwt or 15cwt truck?
I also compared the FAT and F15A books, while the chassis assemblies differ for these vehicles ( FAT: C011QF-5005SA, F15A: C011WQF-5005SA), the left and right side rails on these vehicles ARE THE SAME! (C011Q-5015/6D, later becoming C011Q-5224/5D). The difference between the two assemblies relate to the transfer case crossmember, auxillary spring pads and the provision of winch mounts. Otherwise the FAT is a 15cwt!

plus, as you pointed out, the FGT chassis has a double rear crossmember with larger fishplates.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
May I just add that responsibility for production of cabs layed initially with Fords but axles/suspension layed largely with GM of Canada. This was as a result of experiences with the 1938 G/S 15-cwt Chevrolet trucks that the DND purchased. Failures of king-pins and axles resulted in belief that the 1940 Ford front axle was not strong enough for the production CMPs and so reliance was made initially on either McKinnon/Timken and/or Marmon-Herrington/Timken components. I like to think that Oshawa designed the GT drive-train, Windsor the cabs and possibly Brantford the GT bodies albeit based on the two British designs imported as patterns.

Here's what Sid Swallow had to say on the subject (source: 'Canada's Wartime Prototypes' by Rolland Jerry, published in Vintage Canada, vol.5/2 of March/April 1978). From what I read, initially Ford assumed responsibility of designing the cab and sheetmetal, GM handled the chassis layout, while the four-wheel-drive layout was adopted from Marmon-Herrington. Ford and GM both handled detail engineering to make sure each manufacturer's components would suit the overall design.

HTH,
Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I think your suggestions are almost totally correct Hanno, although GM through McKinnon Industries Limited of St Catherines, Ontario, a GM of C subsidary since 1929, produced the GM/Chevrolet front axles and transfer cases having been requested to do so in '1939'. To quote from the company's own information:

'1939: World War II - The government called upon McKinnons to produce army 4 wheel drive trucks, percussion fuses, dynamotors, for 2-way radios, fire control mechanism, gyro gun sight motors, torpedo drives, elevating units for 3.7 anti-aircraft guns. Floorspace was doubled'.

In fact it was not the trucks per se but the transmissions.

I think what happened was that Ford of Canada adopted the M-H system for the very first prototype F15A, and then for the production F-GT, F30S etc. and GM fell into line. McKinnons supplied Ford with front axles for 4 x 2 and [I was going to say]] F60H but the 6 x 4 chassis used Ford front axles I think...someone correct me please! Well, that was the intention as the 1940 Ford front axle was not strong enough. However a) I seem to recall that Windsor imported the Dearborn COE front axle for the unpowered front axle chassis and b) used GM axles for only specific chassis as we have discussed before including early F15s and 75? 1941 Model F15As. The reason why GM fell in line was because M-H used Timken Axle Company, Detroit, components and GM's Pontiac plant also used Timken-Detroit components in their multi-drive GMCs as well as some export COE Chevrolet.Oldsmobile/GMC trucks. In other words, tried-and-tested components! I believe McKinnons arranged a licence to produce the GM-style transfer case and HD COE front axle in Canada.

Hanno as Search King of the MLU forum could you please direct me to the past thread whereby we discussed parts books evidence for axles and transfer cases for Ford and Chevrolet CMPs please?

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
McKinnons supplied Ford with front axles for 4 x 2 and [I was going to say]] F60H but the 6 x 4 chassis used Ford front axles I think...someone correct me please!

The F15 (cab 13) I have has a Timken (non driven) front axle.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

It is possible that Windsor imported Timken front axles...the parts books should advise [Timken preferably]. I am sure that we have discussed this all before! Trouble is my memory is fading.........

[Euan McDonald]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
I haven't seen one with double chassis rails - it seems to be the same as a C15A (and indeed all the CGT9s here are C15A-based).
Only difference is of course the winch, 2 speed transfer case and ltwo-speed diffs to suit the 20" tyres.

Hey Keith did the C-GT have different rear springs to handle the body roll?
Euan.

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Euan McDonald
Hey Keith did the C-GT have different rear springs to handle the body roll?
Euan.

NOTHING could counter the body roll on a No9 with a Mexican Chev!

The scarcity of CGTs with genuine chassis makes this difficult to say!

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
This is the known pre-1942 model numbers list:

C01QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2” 30-cwt. 4 x 4 Model F-30444 and F.30
C01QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2” 3-ton 4 x 4 model F-60444 and F60S.
C010QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 4¼” 3-ton 6 x 4 F-60640-M and F60H
C011DF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 8-cwt. model F-8421 and F8
C011DQ Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd. 8’ 5” 8-cwt. model F-8441 and F8A
C011QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 4 x 4 artillery tractor model F-60441 and F. -G.T
C011WQF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 15-cwt. 4 x 4 model F-15441 and F15A
C018QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 2” 3-ton 4 x 4 model F-60448 and F60L
EC098TFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 3-ton original designation of C098TFS model F-60428-C and FC60L; this model was a modified civilian type assembled by Dagenham

Re-reading David's post, I see that the Ford trucks have mirrored some aspects of the Chev model code system (eg: F-8421 or F-60640-M). It shows the code of the Artillery Tractor as F-60441, or in other words, a 60cwt.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Well done that man! Why I forgot I had this info escapes me!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Hanno as Search King of the MLU forum could you please direct me to the past thread whereby we discussed parts books evidence for axles and transfer cases for Ford and Chevrolet CMPs please?

Could the thread "Is the FAT a 60cwt or 15cwt truck?" be the one you are looking for?

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Your Majesty, Search King Hanno, it was earlier...a thread about axles [Timken/Ford/Thornton etc.] that went on and on...we had rsearch done into the parts books. I wish I had your talents here.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I think your suggestions are almost totally correct Hanno, although GM through McKinnon Industries Limited of St Catherines, Ontario, a GM of C subsidary since 1929, produced the GM/Chevrolet front axles and transfer cases having been requested to do so in '1939'.

Well, it's not so much my suggestion as it is Sid Swallow's view on things. On the subject of CV joints, I let Rolland Jerry speak again (see attached scan): "Ford and GM produced their own axles and transfer cases, though initially the CV joints were imported from the US, until manufacturing was underway in Canada."

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Your Majesty, Search King Hanno, it was earlier...a thread about axles [Timken/Ford/Thornton etc.] that went on and on...we had rsearch done into the parts books.

Well then, what about "Ford/Marmon-Herrington 6x6 conversions"?

I recall looking up the serials of the first few F15A's fitted with GM axles, but I'm afraid that was done on the old forum. I'll gladly look them up again later tonight if you need them.

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Yes if you could look up the old forum please Hanno I shall be grateful.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Yes if you could look up the old forum please Hanno I shall be grateful.

Look it up on the old forum!?! You must not be realising what you're asking ... network54.com being a fully sponsored site with all sorts of annoying pop-ups and being very hard to google.

But o.k., I like a challenge, so I spent a while trying to retrieve the thread we were referring to. And I was lucky so herewith I present to you (with some pride): NEW THREAD: EARLIEST DND PATTERN TRUCK TYPES of 26 January 2002. I'll e-mail you the web page as a file as well for future reference.

Hope this helps,
Hanno
(sometimes referred to as "Your Majesty, Search King Hanno" : )

P.S.: other old forum pages on the same subject:
- Unique Ford F.8A Photos now available
- Prototype F15A...Chev front axle?
- F15A cab 11 with GM front axle ?

[Keith Webb]

Thanks for the research, Hanno. It was a nostalgic experience looking through the threads of the old forum.

It was also interesting to be reminded just how sunny Southampton used to be. And speaking of sun, spare a thought for the denizens of Sydney, about to suffer through a day predicted to reach 42C, or very bloody hot in the old scale. How does that compare to where you are? Such temperatures must be beyond comprehension to people in northern Europe, just as temps below -5C are to us downunder.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is the unique photo from April or May 1940 of Fords, and as I never can tell which chassis is which, have to assume are indeed as Dr Gregg suggested, 15-cwts with GM axles. However can anyone see a front diff? I have no evidence that there were any F15A units assembled at that time, although there is enough to show that the F15s were the first to be assembled. I have to discount conversion to 4 x 4 drive and if the eagle-eyed out there cannot see any front-drive system then these must have had GM straight front axles and banjo-type rears.

50 of the 175 CKD units were of course lost in France with the remainder continuing to serve with the CIF 1st Division until supplemented by trucks for the 2nd Division.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I had another rummage through my documents on file. The evidence I have is that Ford produced F8, F15 and F-GT CMPs from sometime in March 1940, but these must have been quickly followed by F30S units as they were then called. GM of Canada may have started with C8 and C15 production slightly later than Fords.

However I noticed that there is possible evidence that there were 174 CKD + 1 SKD [pattern?] shipments of each of the C15 and C30S, and also F15 and F30S, further that there is evidence that all C8s were SKD, with no information yet on F8s. As I said before F15s had to use F30S draglinks duly modified by Dagenham because of shortages...asymptomatic of the CKD system. Good job they abandoned the CKD system as rapidly as they did.

I understand at this point that by June 1940 all of the Ford line-up except the F8A were in production although the evidence relating to the F15A production is based on parts numbers quoted in correspondence in the DND papers. Ford's use of F15A model numbers for parts may have covered the F15 as well, hence I shall have to check the papers that I have in storage again in due course to check....the correspondence keeps referring to '15-cwt' trucks without clarifying whether they were 4 x 2 or 4 x 4 drive!

[cliff]

A little off topic but I found this pic on the AWM site as well.

Crated Chev trucks at Morebank NSW dated 1946

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra in NEW THREAD: EARLIEST DND PATTERN TRUCK TYPES on 28 January 2002:

David,

I'm not (yet) convinced by your theory how the "C011WQF" came into being in the UK. Your picture indeed shows Cab 11 Ford with what looks like front-wheel drive axles. But from this picture I cannot tell if these are G.M. banjo of Ford split-type axles. Further, I concur with what Pete has said: G.M. axles under F15As must have been due to delivery problems during assembly of either vehicles or CKD-packs in Canada. (Note: later rebuilds of F15A and C15A trucks might have mixed up axle combinations even further.)
It is not easy to build 4x4 trucks when parts for 4x2 trucks are delivered. Of course a good deal of scrounging could turn out a couple of 4x4 trucks, but not without severely disrupting assembly of the other trucks. I seriously doubt if it was worth the trouble, if possible at all.

Here's what I can tell from my references: Ford Illustrated Spare Parts List F15-A 15 cwt-4x4 (SE. 114, Issued May, 1943) which "applies to the 15 Cwt. 4 x4 15A model designation C011WQ and C291WQ". Two pictures of the F15A are included, one of the "old design" and one of the "new design". The "old design" is a F15A with Cab 11 without radiator shell vents (just like the trucks in your picture) and 2A1 cargo body. The "new design" is an F15A with Cab 13 and 2C1 cargo body.

This manual states that "Ford design front axle C111WQF-3000-A2 and G.M. design rear axle C011WQ-4000 were used with the following motor serial numbers", followed by a list of only 43 numbers, all in the 2G-5...-F and 2G-6...F range.
This confirms the F15A was designated C011WQ and C291WQ, and a small number (43, to be precise) of F15As were fitted with a combination of Ford front and G.M. rear axles.

Part number *C011WQF 3000 B2 is a "G.M. pressed steel design " front axle. "When stock is depleted supply front axle kit" *C111WQ 3014, which is a "Kit - front axle complete to replace G.M. pressed steel axle in service with Ford cast axle". (Note: the use of an asterisk (*) before a part number indicates the part is peculiar to CMP vehicles.)
As Ford catered for a kit to replace G.M. front axles when they ran out of stock, it seems to confirm G.M. front axles were fitted in numbers and/or regularly. But the question remains how many, how often and when?

Regards,
Hanno

David,

As requested, further to the above, here are some parts numbers for axles and transfer cases:

Front axles:
*C111WQF-3000-B2: Axle - front assembly - complete. G.M. pressed steel design. With hubs, brakes, drums, spindle connecting rod and ends. 6.5- ratio. Has removable housing cover. When stock depleted supply front axle kit C111WQ-3014

*C111WQF-3000-A2: Axle - front assembly complete. Ford cast design axles can be identified as a two piece housing bolted together at center. Includes C01Q-3350-1-C2, 4-7/16" Rzeppa joints, hubs, brakes, drums, spindle connecting rod and ends - 6.5-1 ratio. When stock depleted supply C111WQF-3000-D2

*C111WQF-3000-D2: Axle - front assembly complete. Ford cast design axles can be identified as a two piece housing bolted together at center. Includes C11Q-3350-1-A2, 4-7/8" Rzeppa joints, hubs, brakes, drums, spindle connecting rod and ends (6.5-1 ratio). Used to serial #21565 with old design cab.

*C111WQF-3000-A2: Axle - front assembly complete. Ford cast design axles can be identified as a two piece housing bolted together at center. Includes C11Q-3350-1-A2, 4-7/8" Rzeppa joints, hubs, brakes, drums, spindle connecting rod and ends. 6.5-1 ratio. Used with C21QF-3590 and C21QF-3305 from serial #21566 with new design cab.

*C111WQ 3014: Kit - front axle complete to replace a G.M. pressed steel axle in service with Ford cast axle.

*C111WQ 3017: Kit - front axle less steering ends to replace a G.M. pressed steel axle in service with Ford cast axle.

Rear axles:
*C011WQ 4000: Axle-rear assembly with hubs, brakes and drums 6.5-1 ratio - G.M. pressed steel design can be identified as a one piece housing and removable housing cover. When stock depleted, supply Ford cast design axle kit C111WQ-4014

*C011WQ 4000A: Axle-rear assy. with hubs, brakes and drums (6.5-1 ratio) - Ford cast design axles can be identified as a two piece housing boted together at center.

*C011WQ 4000A: Axle-rear assy. with hubs, brakes and drums (6.5-1 ratio) (Ford cast design) Includes Thornton-Welles automatic locking differential (when specified)

*C011WQ 4014: Kit - rear axle - complete. Used to replace a G.M. pressed steel axle in service with a Ford cast type axle.

*C011WQ 4017: Kit - rear axle less hubs and drums. Used to replace a G.M. pressed steel axle in service with a Ford cast type axle.

Transfer case:
*C111WQ-7199, *C291WQ-7199-A, *C291WQ-7199-B and *C291WQ-7199-C: Case - transfer assembly. Used with 9.00 x 16 tyres, without PTO.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
*C011WQ 4000A: Axle-rear assy. with hubs, brakes and drums (6.5-1 ratio) (Ford cast design) Includes Thornton-Welles automatic locking differential (when specified)

Interesting! When I rread that I thought of the M-H chassis with the Thornton rear bogie.

My Ford Handbook, 5th Edition states that in multidrive vehicles the front diff is identical to the rear, then later on it says that early production models had a different design. It is also stated
that the same transfer case was used on 4 x4 and 6 x 4 models except for the F15A, whose design was evidently substantially different..perhaps reflected in the 1941 versus 1941 Model number designation?

[Tony Smith]

The F15A has a single speed (1:1 ratio) Transfer Case, all other 4x4 have a high and low range (1:1 and 1.87:1).

I enquired about the Thornton-Welles locking differential earlier in relation to F-GTs, now I see the thingy was also fitted to F15As, too. Same part number, C11Q-4299. Any idea which vehicle body types these were fitted to, and are there any vehicles still in existance with one fitted?

PS managed to bring the thread back to Gun Tractors .