Australian CGT mystery

[Keith Webb]

Mike Cecil and I have been doing some research into the No9 (Aust) Field Artillery Tractors.
The question is, how many of the Chevrolet No9s were delivered to the Australian Army?
Intriguingly all of the surviving intact CGT9s have been built from NOS bodies on C15A chassis by restorers since the 1970s.
According to surviving records, there were only two delivered to the Army.
Euan's is body number 3 and number 12 and 39 have also been identified (all NOS bodies).
I've seen evidence of 5 others in cut down form, but none of these were on CGT chassis. One of those 5 is Rick Shearman's example:





Has anyone else in Australia any anecdotal or photographic evidence of these trucks?

The assumption at this stage is for some reason only two were delivered and the rest auctioned as scrap or salvage after the war. If so, what happened to the chassis for these vehicles? Did a shipment go missing in transit due to a torpedo?
There were 97 CGT No8 (Aust) built, and 98 and 84 Ford Nos 8 and 9 (Aust), respectively, and of these, the no9 Ford is by far the most numerous survivor.

[Wayne Henderson]

The no.9 GT's I've seen here in the West have all been Fords. Less than a dozen and none complete.
Then again, all the early monkeyface GT's I've found have been Chevs and standard 12 cab trucks being Ford.

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Wayne Henderson
The no.9 GT's I've seen here in the West have all been Fords. Less than a dozen and none complete.
Then again, all the early monkeyface GT's I've found have been Chevs and standard 12 cab trucks being Ford.

Thanks, Wayne
For whatever reason the 7A2 Cab 12s seem to be Chevs over in the West and Fords in the East.

Other than Rod's former FGT 8 have you seen any other number 8s there?

Do you have any details - ARNs or pictures of the other FGT9s you've come across?

[Wayne Henderson]

Hi Keith,
I supplied you with a couple of pics of partial No. 9's yonks back and have seen plenty of trucks since then but no new GTs of either breed.

Rod's is the only No.8 part I know of, (Wheres my fuel tank Rod?)

Members of the local Royal Australian Artillery (Hist. Soc.) remember using No. 8 Gts in the late 40's and into the 50's as their main towing vehicle for the 25 pounders. Memories of standing up thru the hatch at the rear, ammo lockers at the sides and a walk thru rear.
The present members don't recall the No.9 even after showing pictures of the one I recovered locally. Better do a photo search of the library next Month and see what turn up.

[cliff]

Keith while browsing the AWM data base I found this photo of a CGT #8.

[Keith Webb]

Hi Cliff

Yes, it's a beauty, and I've seen a large print of this shot. If you look carefully you'll see the men are giving it a service with oil containers on the running board.

Thanks for posting it.

Keith

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

My eyes are not brilliant..but is that the serial number painted under the hood/engine cover? What does it say please?

Hi David
It's a BONNET here, just like in Blighty!

It's a model number.

The number is 8440 - the 44 being 4X4 and the 0 the short wheelbase and 1942 the date.

[cliff]

David it is either - 3140 1942 or 8140 1942

[Keith Webb]

It is 8440 1942

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Yes that's what I thought! It sounds like a Holden-assembled 1942 MODEL YEAR 8440 C-GT...it's not a serial # as there would have been a Model Year before the 8440, then a '0' then '1942' if that was a sequential #.

I remember that my good pal, Editor Eddie Ford took me to task for describing fenders as 'wings'...'wings' he said 'are on aircraft'!

[Rod Diery]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
Intriguingly all of the surviving intact CGT9s have been built from NOS bodies on C15A chassis by restorers since the 1970s.

Does anyone know exactly what the differences are between the CGT and F15A chassis?

Rod

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rod Diery
Does anyone know exactly what the differences are between the CGT and F15A chassis?

Rod, that is what I wondered about, too: Is the FAT a 60cwt or 15cwt truck?

Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

As you guys know, there was a 6-pounder C60L Anti-tank Portee which debuted around 1943, but these were swiftly obsoleted and I suggest all survivors were rebuilt as G/S trucks, with a modified Number 43 Cab. However the predecessor 2-pounder Portees were officially rated ab initio as '30 cwt.' trucks, and yet they were basically the CGT chassis and Oshawa Plant even allocated them the same 8440 Model Number, unlike the C8AX. The evidence suggests that the Portees were built as batches with CGTS. Given the lack of a parts book to tell the difference 'by the book', I extrapolated that the CGT was a 30-cwt. truck therefore. Going one step further, the FGT was as well.

I know we have been down this road before as regards the differences between the 30-cwt and 60-cwt swb chassis, this seems to be one of upgrading in respect of the latter. The Ford Model Numbers are the same for F30S/F30 and F60S! I can readily see although am no doubt wrong, that the GTs were effectively 30-cwt. chassis with differences to the standard truck chassis but in the end all were created out of mixing and matching components, something that started in Windsor with the F15.

[Keith Webb]

I was having a look at some pictures of the "Peters 5 ton crane" which I think were taken either during or shortly after the war of an Australian CGT chassis, and I compared it to a CGT found last year in Wodonga:




And here's the Peters crane



The interesting thing is the Wodonga CGT happens to be the second of the only two CGT number 9 (Aust) to have been actually built. We know this because it still has it's data plate:



The other one would have had serial 0001.

The question is whether the Wodonga truck is the same one pictured in the 1940s, or it's brother. They were both built by the same engineering company - it might just be the only two CGT 9s shared the same fate.

Here are some more pictures of the Peters crane.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Keith, I have had too much this evening to read the serial #...is this # 38440M002 ENGINE # PR3,960,523 4 SEPTEMBER 1944 that I have in my database please?

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Keith, I have had too much this evening to read the serial #...is this # 38440M002 ENGINE # PR3,960,523 4 SEPTEMBER 1944 that I have in my database please?

Yes, it is, and it has Aust WO number 94 and was the second of the two CGT No9s actually built. The ARN was 141903.

The other was 39440M001

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
However the predecessor 2-pounder Portees were officially rated ab initio as '30 cwt.' trucks, and yet they were basically the CGT chassis and Oshawa Plant even allocated them the same 8440 Model Number, unlike the C8AX. The evidence suggests that the Portees were built as batches with CGTS. Given the lack of a parts book to tell the difference 'by the book', I extrapolated that the CGT was a 30-cwt. truck therefore. Going one step further, the FGT was as well.

I know we have been down this road before ....

David, WHICH portees were officially rated as 30cwt portees? The 2pdr portees built on a C30/F30 truck (GM model 8441) or the portees with the type 42 cab on a CGT chassis(GM Model 8440)? I can understand the C30/F30 portees being rated as 30cwt because they are a 30cwt truck (!), but does your official reference also relate to the CGT chassis portee?
When comparing the components on the Ford F-GT, F60 and F15A, we found that the F-GT had the chassis rails of the F15A, but the suspension and drivetrain of the F60. The C-GT based portee may have been rated at 15cwt and later upgraded to use a 30cwt truck to make use of the longer wheelbase and the ability to carry more stores.

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
When comparing the components on the Ford F-GT, F60 and F15A, we found that the F-GT had the chassis rails of the F15A, but the suspension and drivetrain of the F60.

That's true except for the Australian FGTs which surprisingly all have the light steering ends and steering box, although they of course have the 2 speed transfer case. They're a bit of a mix 'n match.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The 2-Pounder Portees which had the # 42 Cab, were of course broadly similar to the MCC version...which was rated at???? They were rated at 30-cwt. officially it seems as A/Tank Portees. Now, we know that some were handed over to the NZEF in the Mid-East and they then ended up in NZ...did any get loaned to the AIF? Those survivors that we know about were converted as with MCC versions to 17-pounder tractors. I do not know of any G/S conversions but who knows! The 6-pounder C60L trucks were converted to 3-ton G/S trucks, and not tractors so far as I can see. There is a photo of a 17-pounder tractor conversion in WHEELS & TRACKS...a nice shot!

I have been thinking about Windsor's development of the CMPs for some time now, and have been trying to find any clues as which models were designed first, and then the order in which the other models werte designed by Stan Ellis and Sid Swallow's team. I am certain that the F15 was first, followed by the F15A in prototype form. The F15 was transmuted into about 50? 1940 Model G/S 15-cwt trucks for the Canadian DND that preceded CMP production proper. The toss-up is then between the F60H and the FGT although arguably because of the import of the Guy and MCC GT drawings in the Autumn of 1939 which provided the answer to the British WO cab requirements, namely the #11 Cab, it is probable that the FGT preceded the F60H. I believe that the 30-cwt and 3-tonners followed and then the F15A was the final variant. On that basis the FGT was begat of the F15, and may in fact have been the first production 4 x 4 [even prototyped by Oshawa] and it was the F15A that used the FGT chassis rails rather than the other way around. To this was added heavy-duty components that were also adopted for the 3-tonners.

This is an over-simplified suggestion because in practice Oshawa had a serious input and it is possible that GM of Canada were responsible for the 4 x 4 drive system through their McKinnons subsidiary. There is a photo of a/the pilot GT in Dr Gregg's book towing the limber at the General's funeral.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

May I just add that responsibility for production of cabs layed initially with Fords but axles/suspension layed largely with GM of Canada. This was as a result of experiences with the 1938 G/S 15-cwt Chevrolet trucks that the DND purchased. Failures of king-pins and axles resulted in belief that the 1940 Ford front axle was not strong enough for the production CMPs and so reliance was made initially on either McKinnon/Timken and/or Marmon-Herrington/Timken components. I like to think that Oshawa designed the GT drive-train, Windsor the cabs and possibly Brantford the GT bodies albeit based on the two British designs imported as patterns.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
That's true except for the Australian FGTs which surprisingly all have the light steering ends and steering box, although they of course have the 2 speed transfer case. They're a bit of a mix 'n match.

My '43/'44 F60L has 4 7/8 steering knuckles and "375" steering box and I have seen others similar. I have, of course seen other Aussie Fords with the heavy front end as well. Mix and Match might have been the way it was done!

[cliff]

maybe this is what happened to them

Pic from the AWM

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Tony, I believe you must be right. The exception was possibly with regard to the GM of Canada drivetrains. It seems from McKinnon Industries Limited's own records that the DND approached them in 1940 to design the 4 x 4 system for military vehicles. They prevailed on the vast experience that Pontiac, Michigan plant had with GMC 4 x 4 and 6 x 4 trucks from at least 1931 using proprietary components from Timken-Detroit as well as Chevrolet ones. McKinnons evidently obtained licensses from the States to produce the relevant components in Canada. It seems to have been fortuitous that Marmon-Herrington also used Timken components together with Ford ones.

Other than that as Dr Gregg has said in various publications, the first CMPs had components ordered 'out of a catalogue' and it really was a question of using standard items that were to hand at leats initially for expediency. Of course as time went on it probably became easier to order/tool up for specific components based on large production runs and again sharing of components.

[Tony Smith]

The Wodonga C-GT is perhaps fortunate to have retained it's data plate, however it only displays an Aust WO number in the "Chassis Model" field. Are there any extant C-GT's elsewhere in the world that retain their Canadian data plate which will give an indication of the rated vehicle capacity, either 15, 30, or 60cwt? Very interesting!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Are there any extant C-GT's elsewhere in the world that retain their Canadian data plate which will give an indication of the rated vehicle capacity, either 15, 30, or 60cwt?

Unfortunately not, as the "Chassis Model" is displayed as "C-GT"

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
This is an over-simplified suggestion because in practice Oshawa had a serious input and it is possible that GM of Canada were responsible for the 4 x 4 drive system through their McKinnons subsidiary.

Assuming the engineers at G.M. numbered their projects consecutively, the development of the CMP at G.M. was as follows:

G.M. Series Number:
8421 ... C-15
8440 ... C-CGT
8441 ... C-30
8442 ... C-60S
8443 ... C-60L
8444 ... C-15A
8445 ... C-8A
8448 ... C-8A (Cab & Chassis only)

Although I'd say they were more likely parallel developments, rather than purely consecutive.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
May I just add that responsibility for production of cabs layed initially with Fords but axles/suspension layed largely with GM of Canada. This was as a result of experiences with the 1938 G/S 15-cwt Chevrolet trucks that the DND purchased. Failures of king-pins and axles resulted in belief that the 1940 Ford front axle was not strong enough for the production CMPs and so reliance was made initially on either McKinnon/Timken and/or Marmon-Herrington/Timken components. I like to think that Oshawa designed the GT drive-train, Windsor the cabs and possibly Brantford the GT bodies albeit based on the two British designs imported as patterns.

From The Design Record, Vol. 4, p. 27:

"Immediately after the war was declared, the Ford Motor Company of Canada were charged with the responsibility of developing a 4x4 truck for army use. Obviously, they had very little experience in this field [...] Consequently they went to the Marmon-Herrington Company, Indianapolis, who in peace time supplied conversion material to convert Standard Ford 4x2 trucks into 4x4 models for various commercial peace time usage. [...] these joints were unsuitable [...] [the weight of the more or less cab over engine design and heavy army wheels/tires put too much load on the front axle joints.] To solve this problem, "Bendix-Weiss and Rzeppa joints were chosen by General Motors and Ford respectively [...] [They later realized that the "Tracta" type was better but they were already tooled up with the above types, so left it as it was.]

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Unfortunately not, as the "Chassis Model" is displayed as "C-GT"

The Chev MB-C1 says the plate will give a code something along the lines of C-30440-M, representing:

C Canadian made
30 30cwt
4 number of road wheels
4 number of driven wheels
0 wheelbase
M Military cab type

If we could find a Canadian made C-GT with this plate, it should tell us if the C-GT is 15, 30, or 60cwt.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

On checking the 'S/M 2037' plate I found that the serial number and engine number are fictitious! The engine is a 1941 Model, and the serial number is equally bogus! I have never seen '(4x4)' on any similar GM of C plate before.

Goiung back to the Model Listing, the evidence shows that Models 8420 and 8421, C8 and C15 were the first Chevrolet CMPs to be produced, with C30S, C60S, CGT, C60L in that order, with C15A and then C8A followubng up the rear with the C8AX, and then the armoured chassis. However this sequence was probably not the same as Windsor's. This is the known pre-1942 model numbers list:

C11AD Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 6” 4 door 5-pass. estate with 9.00 x 13 wheels
C11ADF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 6” 4 door 5-pass. estate right hand drive
C11AS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 6” 4 door 7-pass. estate with 6.00 x 16 wheelsa
C01QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2” 30-cwt. 4 x 4 Model F-30444 and F.30
C01QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2” 3-ton 4 x 4 model F-60444 and F60S.
C010QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 4¼” 3-ton 6 x 4 F-60640-M and F60H
C011DF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 8-cwt. model F-8421 and F8
C011DQ Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd. 8’ 5” 8-cwt. model F-8441 and F8A
C011QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 4 x 4 artillery tractor model F-60441 and F. -G.T
C011QRF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 4 x 4 REAR-ENGINED for India C191QRF [1941] Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 4 x 4 REAR-ENGINED for India
C011WQF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 15-cwt. 4 x 4 model F-15441 and F15A
C018QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 2” 3-ton 4 x 4 model F-60448 and F60L
C098TFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 2” 3-ton model F-60428C and FC60L; this model was a modified civilian type
EC098TFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 3-ton original designation of C098TFS model F-60428-C and FC60L; this model was a modified civilian type assembled by Dagenham
EC098UFS as EC098TFS but with Tipping Gear and body based on C098U with 2-speed axle and 10.50 x 16 tyres
C101WF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 15-cwt. model F-15421 and F15
C11ADF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 9’ 6” Heavy Utility (4-door estate car) model numbers not given (possibly FHU421 and F8)
EC196TFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 3-ton 14’8” 2-speed rear axle and 7.50 x 20 tyres for Canadian Forestry Corps based on C196T

Note the F15 4 x 2 was a '1941' Model Year model! However this is a misnomer. I have therefore to introduce some evidence from my thesis:

"After the Canadian occupation of most of the Southampton plant, their section was quickly converted to military vehicle assembly, which was easily achieved, as there were already all the requisite up-to-date facilities available to assemble 20 cars and 20 trucks in peacetime. According to Dr Gregg, the Plant was ready and in production by 12 May 1940 . Dr. Gregg has also alleged that production of 15-cwt. 4 x 2 trucks started in April 1940, followed by 8-cwt. 4 x 2 May 1940, 30-cwt. 4 x 4 and 3-ton/60-cwt. 4 x 4 also in May, the Field Artillery Tractors in June, then the 15-cwt. 4 x 4 in September 1940 . This is disputed though from following evidence.Confirmation of the actual first day of production has however been the result of considerable research. Clues have been forthcoming from a Department of National Defence file , although even that file is not conclusive. The sum total of evidence is as follows. A ‘backorder and shortages’ list provided a list of parts requested by a Memorandum of 5 April 1940, shipped from what appears to have been Ford in Windsor on 12 April: this was for ‘174 15-cwt. C.K.D.’ units, and was sent to ‘Canmilitry, C/o General Motors, Southampton’ and consisted of various Ford and possibly G.M. parts. It appears as though these may well have been the very first D.N.D.-pattern units assembled for export, namely Ford F.15 4 x 2 G.S. Trucks. There were also two Memoranda sent by Ford of Canada to London on 27 March and then a revised version on 11 April , relating to ‘Decking Military Cabs’ and ‘Assembly of Military Cabs From S.K.D. Stock’, though the parts number suggests that these were F.30S trucks. This has led to the suggestion that the first shipments were of a batch of Ford F.15 trucks followed by F.30S lorries and that 174 of the F.15 trucks were C.K.D. with the having been built up to test the overseas assembly procedures although was it also used as a trial for the S.K.D. units that followed: see below .

The next clue is a letter dated 17 April sent to ‘Mr. C.S. Finkle, Canadian Mechanization Depot, G.M. Building, Southampton, England’ by J.A. Lane, the Export Manager at G.M. of Canada, Oshawa advising that they had experienced a few assembly problems with the first run of 15-cwt. vehicles, model ‘84-21’, which was the Chevrolet C.15 4 x 2 D.N.D.-pattern truck . He wished to draw attention to these with a view to assisting Finkle ‘in your initial production’. Variations in the Arch Bar resulted in misalignment of the front fender and fender support holes. The source of the Windshield and Roof Panel Header Strips had made a mistake in drilling outer holes; cab spot welding as received from the source was not acceptable, which required re-welding in the plant, and there was an increase in production of the clearance between the brake pedal shaft and bushing. Given that Ford had agreed to build cabs for both companies for C.K.D. shipments, it is conjected that there were, say 175, C.15 C.K.D. shipments, and by extrapolation, 175 C.30S trucks. There is no evidence yet that G.M. of Canada assembled one C.15 C.K.D. unit to verify assembly efficacy in Southampton.

A further letter of 8 May by Lane confirmed that on the first 143 Chevrolet Model 84-20 8-cwt. S.K.D. trucks the holes for the Floor Plate in the Frame Side Rails were drilled one inch too far forward, and they were going to send a jig to enable the holes to be properly located. These were the very early Chevrolet C.8 8-cwt. 4 x 2 trucks which in theory went into production in May, though Conveyor Line Saddle drawings on file for the 8-cwt and 15-cwt. 4 x 2 [straight front axle and the rear axle] and the ‘Quad’ [front and rear axles] chassis were dated 4 April 1940 and marked inter alia, ‘type used final assembly Windsor’. These were to support the axles on these earliest 4 x 2 trucks, and the Field Artillery Tractor with its additional front differential, being attached to the outside edge of the chain type conveyor as used in Southampton.

Ford in Windsor sent Memoranda 28 March and 2 April 1940 to Dagenham and Southampton by air mail concerning deficiencies in parts and improved items for the first 108 shipped units, revealed as one truck selected at random had been built-up from the components, which seems to confirm that the 175th shipment was indeed the first S.K.D. unit. Further, Ford had shipped the afore-mentioned ‘Service parts’ for 440 15-cwt. Trucks, which had erred on the side of the assemblers in assessing potential losses in transit and assembly . On 12 April another Memorandum was sent to various parties including Finkle and Ellis referring to items on back order for Dagenham for 440 15-cwt. [F.15] ‘Semi K.D. jobs’ and ‘1 set up’: the latter was presumably the C.K.D. truck that was re-assembled in Windsor . A list of parts that may have been sent out on 3 April [date not clear] shows that they were for Ford 3-ton 6 x 4; F.A.T; 158-inch wheelbase 3-Ton and 30-cwt. 4 x 4, 8-cwt. 4 x 2 and 15-cwt. 4 x 2 C.M.P. units. These would have been destined for Dagenham and Southampton. This is the most conclusive evidence known of the first types of Fords that could have been assembled in Southampton, and at some stage all the Chevrolet equivalents would have been handled by the C.M.D.".

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
The Chev MB-C1 says the plate will give a code something along the lines of C-30440-M

Ideally yes, but the CGT plates I have seen display nothing else than "C-GT". I wonder if there was a proper coding for the C-GT, but a plate stamped accordingly would be the Gun Tractor Rosettta Stone!

Regards,
Hanno

P.S.: here's an example of "shorthand" data plate stamping:

Source: http://www.oldcmp.net/plates.html (oh Keith, some broken links here...)