Provincial plates for MVs

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

I managed a few nice things at a local Flea Market. There were a few vendors of old car stuff and such and they all had a lot of old license plates.

After yakkin' with a old 50-70s zipperhead veteran not too long ago, where he left me with the notion of such things in the title of this thread, I was pleased to purchase the below plate. I am not any sort of plate collector, license or otherwise. I have a few on the wall in the garage is all. Ones I like.

I would be interested in the discussion around a plate like this and if it was in fact true that in 1960, DND MVs were licensed provincially, by type, at least in NB. That would suggest that there may be other province's plates as well.

regards
Darrell

[Wayne Hingley]

Im not sure of the year stamped on the first plate (difficult to read because of the handhold bar), but it is a NB provincial plate on this M37. Ed has posted a magnified image here: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...&postcount=130

Also an RCAF M37 with 1959 British Columbia plate.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Wayne

Very nice. Thank you for that link. The license plate portion of that discussion was buried in your vehicle restoration thread and as I was apparently too rude to even see it, a belated well-done to you.

I guess what caught my attention was the word TANK and that made me wonder if there were other types of vehicle. I've seen been shown another exactly as mine above (same prefix, different #) and did see pictures online of an "I" prefix 1960 NB plate (same colours) to a MOTORCYCLE. Is it a Military plate and if so, were there other "Types", I wonder. I'm going to go through a few photo archives this weekend.

regards
Darrell

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

I had a look through some photo archives for more pics license plates with the vehicle type on them but no luck.

Most were hard to see or just a provincial plate with no Type on them.

Found a 1962 NB plate on a Ferret (54-82600) but sadly, it doesn't say "Scout Car" at the bottom!!

regards
Darrell

[Ed Storey]

How about this Manitoba plated M38CDN?

[Robin Craig]

Darrell, what the heck is that ironmongery on the rear of that Ferret and do you have an applicable CFTO or equivalent for it and what leads you to believe the CFR is for that plate?

[Colin Alford]

Darrell,

I found your plate, and questions interesting and conducted a bunch of image searches in an attempt to gather information.

The image searches for provincial plates on Canadian military vehicles is certainly complicated due to the varying provincial requirements of both front and rear plates, or only rear plates, and whether the image was taken from an appropriate angle to capture the plate (if fitted).

I feel that there is sufficient photographic evidence to suggest that most provinces likely required provincial plates on military wheeled vehicles.

The question of provincial plates on tanks (and potentially other tracked vehicles), seems to be dependent upon the province.

A good resource for period images of Canadian tanks is Jason Ginn’s Canadianarmsandarmour.ca website: Canadian Arms and Armour – An online resource for the study and preservation of Canada's fighting vehicles and equipment

In the case of Ontario, I have found images of Carden-Lloyd tankettes, Vickers Mk VIb light tanks, and potentially two Valentines with provincial plates (one Valentine image is definitely a 1942 Ontario Plate). The majority of Valentine images do not show any plates, and I have not noted any images of plates on the M1917 (6 Tonne) Light Tanks, Rams, M4A1 Grizzlies, M4A2E8, M24, M5A1, or Centurion. Therefore, given the images that I have found, it seems that the last Ontario plate for a tank was issued in 1942. There was a common feature of the observed plates in that they all end in an “F” suffix.

In the case of Quebec, there are 2 images in “The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps, An Illustrated History” that show Quebec plates on a Ferret, a jeep, and possibly a Staghound (out of focus). The Ferret and Jeep plates have a “G” prefix possibly indicating a unique numbering system for military vehicles. I have not noted any images of Quebec provincial plates on tanks.

It seems that in the post-war years the greatest prevalence of images of provincial plates on tanks are from BC, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan. Due to the limited quantity, and quality, of the images, I cannot determine any pattern to the numbering system to determine if there was distinct set of plates for military vehicles.

With regards to New Brunswick, I have not found any images of provincial plates on tanks (most 1960s images (less the fire trucks mentioned below) seem to indicate that NB provincial plates were only on the rear of military wheeled vehicles, and most of the tank images are from the front or side so the plates may have been present on tanks, but not captured in the available imagery.

This website gives a good indication of the NB standard civilian passenger plates from the era (but does not go into detail about any period special plates): Vehicle registration plates of New Brunswick - Wikipedia

A google image search for “New Brunswick License Plate 1960” reveals a surprising variety of different styles of plates. I’ve noted Municipal Plates, Motorcycle plates, ones with C, DS, FS, and GS prefixes, as well as ones with an X suffix which expired on 30 June. This seems to indicate that the authorities were comfortable with creating a large variety of different plates for different classes of vehicles.

I found images of another 1960 NB Tank plate very similar to yours: 1960 New Brunswick Tank License Plate | HiBid Auctions

I have only noted 3 images of NB civilian plates on military vehicles where the numbers are somewhat legible. Those 3 images are the Line Truck cited by Wayne, your Ferret image, and an image at the Firehall in Gagetown.

The LAC link for the Line Truck image is: http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.redire...35426&lang=eng

The LAC link for the Gagetown Firehall is: http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.redire...34345&lang=eng

The Line Truck (1963) definitely has a DS prefix. The Ferret (1962) definitely has an S as the second letter of the prefix, and the Firehall image (date unknown but likely earlier than 1962 given the colour of the plates) is blurry, but I interpret those plates to have a 2-letter prefix which is in a smaller font than the numbers. With this analysis, it would appear that your Tank plate has a different numbering system than the known images of NB plates on other military vehicles.

A related question came to mind: How many military tanks would likely have been in NB during 1960? I do not have a firm grasp on the history of Gagetown and what Regular or Reserve Armoured units in NB were equipped with during the time period, but I do note that the Armour School, as part of the Combat Arms School (later CTC) did not move to Gagetown from Borden until 1970. With the other 1960 Tank plate numbered 232, and your plate numbered 244, these seem like high numbers for Canadian military tanks to have likely been in NB during 1960. (While both plates have some rust, I do not notice any marks which would indicate that either plate was bolted to a vehicle, therefore I assume that both plates were unused.)

I have also attempted to consider whether these plates might have been intended for some sort of civilian tank (eg: a fuel or water truck or trailer). Given the wide variety of different types of 1960 NB plates, these plates could potentially have been intended for some civilian “tank” application.

Given the modern trend of updating a plate’s validity with yearly stickers, the period practice of issuing new plates every year seems incredibly wasteful. With NB apparently producing a wide variety of plates in 1960 for very specific purposes, it seems that unless they had accurate predictions of their requirements, there was potential for further waste due to overproduction of the various types of plate. With these Tank plates appearing (to me through a computer screen) to be unused would seem to support the notion of overproduction which then led to waste.

If these Tank plates were intended for military use, I suspect that it was during a very short period of time. With the known images of military vehicles with NB plates lacking a specific marking to denote the type of vehicle, I suspect that in most cases military vehicles were issued a specific series of plates (possibly with a DS prefix).

Another point that I think is worth mentioning is that I have not seen any images of any license plates on Centurion or Leopard. Even after the adoption of the CFR plates, Canada has seemed content with painted CFRs on tanks (but plates on most other armour). Some of this lack of evidence (prior to the adoption of CFR plates) might be attributable to the concentration of tanks in Reg F units (once the Shermans were withdrawn from the Reserve units) which may have reduced the tanks operating in provinces that required license plates.

All of the above is based on the limited pictorial evidence that I have been able to access, which notably has not included any 1960s era images taken from the rear of tanks operating in NB.

Colin

[Colin Alford]

Some wartime images from Borden showing provincial plates. All 4 of these images are from the Ontario Archives.

Links: https://aims.archives.gov.on.ca/SCRI...2Nq/1/5/49010?

https://aims.archives.gov.on.ca/SCRI...NE/1/18/49023?

https://aims.archives.gov.on.ca/SCRI...JF/1/56/49965?

https://aims.archives.gov.on.ca/SCRI...2NQ/1/4/48934?

[Colin Alford]

A post war image form Borden showing a provincial plate. Due to the location of the plate, it is not visible in the majority of the images in this series.

LAC link: http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.redire...35897&lang=eng

[Colin Alford]

In my first post I stated that all of the wartime Ontario plates had an F suffix. This might have varied by year as these early images have the suffix C.

I do not recall where I found these images.

[Colin Alford]

Here are the images mentioned above regarding postwar Quebec provincial plates.

[david moore]

Hi Colin
Attached are 4 photos originally from the daughter of Trooper Thorburn of the BC Regt. These were taken while they were in training in Welland ON in 1941. They were using the carriers of the South Alberta Regt.
All the plates have an F suffix as you noted.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Colin

Well I certainly must say thank you for the informative response. Your search of resources for pics definitely adds to the conversation.

I can add a little after searching through some old CDs of mine. No luck finding a provincial plate on a tank either.

I added a few pics below.

Pre-WW2, a tankette in London with a "C" suffix plate and the two Experimental Armoured Cars in Petawawa, each with a "C" suffix plate. The Radio truck is also similarly plated.

The trucks are in St John PQ pre-WW2 and one has an "F" suffix plate while the RCASC marked truck's plate is un-readable. It could have come from the other Sqn of the RCD, that was in Toronto at that time, for some concentration of Regt'l vehicles.

Finally, post-WW2, is a Deuce unloading from an RCAF C-119 in Gander, Nfld, Ex and date unkn. "GS" or "DS" prefix. The the other seems to be a Newfoundland plate. Unsure.

These do support your observations above.

As for tanks in NB after Camp Gagetown opened in 1956 and Camp Utopia closed in 1958, and the Armour School came in 1970, it wouldn't be a lot, but not just a few either. Militia Shermans and a Regiment(-) in Gagetown. 8th Canadian Hussars (Militia) records indicate that in 1952 there were x4 Shermans at Utopia and x5 at Camp Sussex. In 1957, the Regular Regiment of the 8CH was created in Camp Gagetown with Centurions , stayed until late 1959 and were replaced by the RCD.

I had also considered the possibility that the "Tank" plate was civilian, in relation to such vehicles as you mentioned, as well. I cannot confirm that either though. Some plate collectors I've spoken to at flea market etc venues thought it was a Commercial plate for civil vehicle types you mention but not all. Some of the others tended to not be aware of that type on an NB plate at all. As you found, there isn't much of a detailed history in NB vehicle plates use.

My example does look like it has been bolted onto to something at least once.

I'm hoping to meet up next week with a fellow who has a couple similar to mine. He was a black hat hereabouts back in the day too so maybe he can enlighten me a bit more.

Again, thanks for your efforts and the really applicable points you raise. Well done. I will keep looking at photo resources where I can and see what else I can come up with.

regards
Darrell

[Darrell Zinck]

and the other...

[Colin Alford]

David,

That is a very nice set of images of early Canadian Universal Carriers. I get a bit of a giggle out of the seat cushions placed on the left sponson bins and the convoy shot which seems to indicate that this group routinely sat that high-up in the vehicle. Nowadays the safety folk would lose their minds!

Darrell,

It appears that the “DS” on NB plates equals “Dominion Service”. Please see the paper packaging on this new set from 1972:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/33466323332...Kwx5N8uk90Q%3D

[Colin Alford]

Darrell,

I’m learning a lot regarding Ontario plates on military vehicles. Various sites seem to indicate that the “F” suffix plates started in ‘41, and one site claims they were in use until ‘68.

This site has various colour images of “F” plates: https://ericsplates.weebly.com/wanted.html

The following page has some excellent images of Vickers Mk VIb in 1941, and includes the quote:
“Nice photos of the Ontario F suffix plates on the military vehicles. They look to be the '41 base. I'm pretty sure that was the first year for the F suffix plates, and they were issued in '42 and '43, anually. Then in '45 they came out with permanent white on brown plates, which were used up to 1968. Since then the Dept of Defense has taken over registry of all military vehicles, with plates marked CANADA.”

Scroll close to the bottom of the page: https://wwiijeepparts.com/Archives/1...ensePlate.html

[Colin Alford]

Darrell,

I got excited when I found this video. While there is some Bobcat, and possibly Rat imagery (linked in appropriate MLU threads), and there is film of Centurions on the move in Gagetown during the ‘60s, the only provincial plates visible are from Ontario, and Quebec (there is one NB plate, but the numbers are not visible).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrNv0QOqPf8

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi David

Sorry, I missed your post. Thanks for that; those are some very nice photos. Very clear.

Hi Colin

I note in that eBay sale for the "DS" plates from NB that the prefix "I" is retained. Lends a bit of credence that the earlier "I" prefix was used in govm't service in NB perhaps?

That video is pretty cool. Something for every MLU-er there! Not only the Bobcat, the plates at 5:27 & 5:40 , but also those interesting fuel bladders at 7:00, the Mk1 Stalwart (24EK70) at 7:24 and the fine RCD shleppin' 20 pdr sabot at 10:51.

regards
Darrell

[Colin Alford]

Darrell,

I don’t think that there is an “I” prefix on your tank plate. I believe that it is the number 1. For the 1972 DS plates on eBay (now sold), the paper packaging shows the plate number as DS 1869 whereas the plate reads DS 1-869. The Wikipedia page seems to indicate that for most period series of NB plates, the number would start at 1-000, and then increase: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicl..._New_Brunswick

I have found another excellent video on YouTube. It was produced by the RCH in 1963. It has plenty of in-focus footage of Shermans in Petawawa, and Farnham. The footage seems to confirm that Ontario and Quebec did not require provincial plates on Tanks, but they were present on wheeled vehicles. The film also includes Worthy dancing at a Ball!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1dya3vbszo

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Colin

Good spot. Yes, it is a numeral rather than a letter.

Notably, that same Wiki page suggests, by comparison (IE 1947), that my plate may be a numeral prefix vice a letter.<idea>

I have to watch that video a little closer later tonite.....8CH NCOs, RCD Officer(?), FF Worthington and LGen Fleury's medals.....

*edit* So I did watch the rest. Very good. He was an RCD Offr. Area & Armd/Sqn Tac Signs on the wheeled vehs and the Shermans. A convenient "43" in front of one of the veh #. There must has been a shortage of canvas makers (Mat Techs?) at the time or that Sherman was going into or just out of storage of some sort!

And it brings a tear to see Export A Plain as the smoke of choice for those old Blackhats. Sniff.


regards
Darrell

[Dan Martel]

Gentlemen,

I've just found the photo below in my archives. An APC equipped with the SS-11 missile system. It has an Ontario plate on the bow. Thought it might be of interest.

[Ed Storey]

Great photograph of an interesting modification of the M113A1CDN and the vehicle 65-35012 was disposed of out of 25 CF Depot, Montreal.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

Not post-war but pre-.

A bit of a postcard currently for sale on ebay showing a Manitoba plate T-1-439 (1932) on a vehicle in Fort Osborne Winnipeg 1931-1932.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/394634246746...Bk9SR_i7t4GtZA

regards
Darrell

[Darrell Zinck]

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Darrell, what the heck is that ironmongery on the rear of that Ferret and do you have an applicable CFTO or equivalent for it and what leads you to believe the CFR is for that plate?

Hi Robin

Late reply but the "ironmongery" is a mount for a Tote Goat:

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3135

RE the Ferret CFR, I have another pic of that same vehicle that shows the # stenciled on the hull, is all.

regards
Darrell