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  #1  
Old 20-01-10, 06:04
Jason Ginn's Avatar
Jason Ginn Jason Ginn is offline
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Default Post-War British Ram Kangaroo Question

I was flipping through a booklet titled The British Tank: A Photographic History 1916-1986 by Lt. Col. (Retd.) George Forty and noticed an image of a Ram Kangaroo with a post-1949 British Census number on p.34. This image and the number of Kangaroo's on, or recently recovered from, UK ranges made me wonder if the number of Ram Kangaroo's retained and/or converted by the British for use in the peacetime army is known? Would these have served until replaced by the Saracen?

The census number on this APC is partially obscured on both the side and rear but what is visible is 67 ?R 43. Would it be possible to determine the missing letter in the registration and does this correspond to the earlier War Department number?

Thanks,
J
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  #2  
Old 20-01-10, 09:20
tankbarrell tankbarrell is offline
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I have Ram APC registration numbers in the batches:-
67ZR40 - 69ZR17 and 71ZR20 - 72ZR00.

This totals 200 vehicles which may just have been the quantity allocated or may indicate holdings at 1947.

Also listed are :-

Ram ARV Mk2
72ZR20 - 72ZR57 37 vehicles
23ZV72 - 23ZV82 10 vehicles

Ram 6 pdr gun tank
20ZV29 - 20ZV37 8 vehicles
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  #3  
Old 24-01-10, 04:15
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Thanks for the info!

I just found Hanno and Bill's posts Here that shows other post-war APC's from this registration group. The images are probably all from the same source.

Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 08-12-19 at 13:58. Reason: fixed link
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  #4  
Old 30-01-10, 11:23
Roddy de Normann Roddy de Normann is offline
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Default Post-War Ram Kangaroos

Jason -

Interesting post that had me diving into my records...

UK Veh Census numbering changed from the wartime T No series to various Z references (ie ZR, ZT etc) between 1948 & 1950. Tank variants tended to use ZR. I have yet to find exact details of why, how or exactly when...

In 1944/45, a large number of Ram variants were struck off the Canadian Census and were either used on the UK mainland (training) or retained by 21 Army Gp...

Thanks to the Bovy Tank Museum Archives I can give you the following for Ram derivitives retained from the war:

Ram APCs (Mks I & II) -

67 ZR 40 - 69 ZR 17
71 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 00

Ram ARVs (Mk II) -

72 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 56

Ram II GPOs -

72 ZR 68 - 74 ZR 72
75 ZR 00 - 75 ZR 19
75 ZR 23 - 75 ZR 26

Details of 67 ZR 43 in your pic are:

Ex T-40701

Engine No: 124776

Initially listed as in 51 Armd Veh Depot on 4 Feb 53

Struck off Census Return for disposal to TW Ward, Sheffield on 19 Sep 56...

Perhaps more interesting is the wartime history of the same veh...

From Canadian Archives I have been able to put the following together:

CT. 40701 & CT. 40701T

Ram IID Contract CDLV 283

14th & A Sqn, 27th (Canadian) Army Tank Regiments (Calgary Regiment & Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

27 CAR 6 pdr Main Armament Serial No. L/17341

30 Apr 43 - UK. Veh with 14 CAR & noted in wksps during Comd Changeover Review of Holdings - Regt Papers, Can NA Microfilm T-21673, p.1079 -

20 Jul 43 - UK. Veh noted with A Sqn, 27 CAR & listed in monthly veh returns - Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12757 -

1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives




Hope this helps

Roddy de Normann
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  #5  
Old 31-01-10, 07:09
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Wow!

This is awesome! I never could have imagined that someone would have this much info at hand!

Assuming that these registration number blocks are inclusive would it be accurate to say that that there were 544 or 545 Ram tanks allotted registration numbers under the 1947 system? These can be broken down as follows:

Ram APCs (Mks I & II) - Qty. 259

67 ZR 40 - 69 ZR 17
71 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 00

Ram ARVs (Mk II) - Qty. 47 (or 48)

72 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 56 (or 57)
23 ZV 72 - 23 ZV 82

Ram II GPOs - Qty. 229

72 ZR 68 - 74 ZR 72
75 ZR 00 - 75 ZR 19
75 ZR 23 - 75 ZR 26

Ram II 6 pdr gun tank - Qty. 9

20 ZV 29 - 20 ZV 37

A July 1945 Canadian Army accounting of Ram tanks held overseas shows that of the 1567 remaining after VE Day there were 849 in British stocks. Two years later it appears that this number had dwindled to about 545.

It seems 44 of the 849 (40 with 75mm guns and 4 O/P's) were transferred from British stocks to the Netherlands in 1947. The July 1945 doc referred to above indicates that there were 39 75mm equipped Ram II's in Canadian stock and 1 in British stock and the list on Clive's site contains at total of 40 75mm equipped tanks, but the 1947 census listing show 9 six pdr. gun tanks and no 75's, so all this seems to agree.

I imagine that a large portion of the unaccounted for vehicles (about 260) were sold off as scrap during 1946-47.


Quote:
Details of 67 ZR 43 in your pic are:

Ex T-40701

Engine No: 124776

Initially listed as in 51 Armd Veh Depot on 4 Feb 53

Struck off Census Return for disposal to TW Ward, Sheffield on 19 Sep 56...
I have had time for a little more research in the past week have learned that "A" vehicle cards are held at Bovington. Is this info held on one of these cards?

By chance do you know if it is possible to search the "A" vehicle cards using the old WD number or just by the the post-war census number? A bit O/T but I would love to be able to complete service history of Ram CT40892, a post-war British APC conversion brought back to Canada during 2004. It is listed as a cruiser held in Canadian Army stock overseas during June of 1945 and ended up on a range in the UK configured as a APC but that's about all I know for certain. I haven't had a chance to contact the Archivist at the Tank Museum to see if this type of search is possible but i guess if it isn't i can always use it as a excuse to go to see Bovington, and 250 vehicle cards!

See: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2060

Thanks again!

J

Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 08-12-19 at 14:01. Reason: fixed link
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  #6  
Old 03-02-10, 00:01
Roger Lucy Roger Lucy is offline
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Default Ram ARVs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Ginn View Post
Ram ARVs (Mk II) - Qty. 47 (or 48)

72 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 56 (or 57)
23 ZV 72 - 23 ZV 82
Did the British convert Ram IIs to ARVs? In all, Canada converted 50 Rams to ARVs, in 1943, but 38 were Ram Is (out of the 40 sent to the UK) and 12 Ram IIs.

Roger Lucy
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Old 03-02-10, 05:12
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I have attached the document I was referring to in my previous post. I believe Don Dingwall found it sand has passed it on to a few other folks.

You can see that on 28 July 1945 there were 8 Ram I and 2 Ram II ARV's held in Canadian stocks.

The same document shows that 28 Ram I and 12 Ram II ARV's had been previously transferred to the British.

Totals are:

Ram I ARV: qty.36
Ram II ARV: qty.14
Grand total 50

This list shows a total of 40 Mark I tanks but only 36 of these configured as ARV's. 1 is listed as salvage and 3 remain as cruisers. This 1945 document agrees with the Clive's detailed list on RamTank which contains records for 36 Ram Mark I ARV's held in Canadian stocks in January 1944. It gets interesting when you look a the details of the Ram II ARV's in Clives List. There are 15 in total, 14 of these are in Canadian Stocks as of January 1944 but the 15th, which is very definetly a ARV Mark II with Winch, (CT-159854) has the following entry:

"Jan 1944, shown as Struck Off Strength to the British delivered to 13 AFV Depot, Kegworth
Oct 1944, shown as Struck off Strength to British

KT, date unknown, shown as a Cruiser held by C Sqdn, 12 CAR (TRR) and named "Canadian"
KT, date unknown, shown as an ARV held by 12 CAR (TRR) and named "Canadian" "


I re-calculated the British census number block for the ARV's and, if the numbers are inclusive, i missed one. The new quantity should be:

Ram ARVs (Mk II) - Qty. 48 (or 49)

72 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 56 (or 57) qty. 37 (or 38)
23 ZV 72 - 23 ZV 82 qty. 11

This shows as discrepancy of 1 or 2 ARV's of all marks (depending on the census numbers) between 1946 and 1947.

Hanno mentions on the Sherman Register that the Netherlands acquired 2 Ram I's in 1946. Could these be the unaccounted for ARV's? It would be odd that of all the "A" vehicles in the Netherlands the Dutch would request (or accept) two obsolete 2 pdr equipped gun tanks when they were obviously after 75mm or greater equipped AFV's. If this were the case it would account for all Ram ARV's on the 1945 list.

Brian Baxter's book " Breakdown - A History of Recovery Vehicles in the British Army" states that the ARV Mark I was developed by the Experimental Recovery Section of the Director of Mechanical Maintenance in early 1942 at Arborfield. The ARV Mark I was envisioned to be built on each major AFV platform in use at the time.The Churchill was the first in use but some designs were discarded as unsuitable. Eventually the Grant, Ram, Sherman, Cromwell, Centaur and Cavalier were accepted and manufactured As ARV Mark I's. The Ram ARV Mark I was slightly different from the other's in that it retained its turret and was developed at Arborfield in co-operation with the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps.

On p. 49 Baxter states that the winch equipped ARV Mk. II was developed in 1943 by the Experimental Recovery Section in the UK for three AFV platforms only. These were the Sherman, Churchill and Ram. Apparently the Ram was intended for use by Canadian units but was built to a common design. He goes on to state that 500 ARV Mark II's were ordered but only pilot models and a very few REME conversions were actually built before wars end.

On p. 74 he states that the Ram ARV Mark I was considered for issue to SP regiments of the Royal Artillery in 1954. This was apparently due to a shortage of Mark II ARV's in the post-war years.

I had always thought that the ARV Mark I and Mark II nomenclature referred to the variant of Ram tank but it appears that the designation refers specifically to the variant of recovery equipment fitted to a number of different AFV platforms, e.g. The Churchill ARV Mark I was built using Mark I and II infantry tanks as platforms.

It is interesting that the Ram ARV stayed in Royal Army stores as late as the mid 1950's.

I guess the question is were the Canadian ARV numbers based on the platform used for the conversion or the model of ARV created? It appears that 36 Ram Mark I cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration and 14 Ram Mark II cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration.

The photographic evidence of CT-159854 confirms that it is a Ram Mark II cruiser that has been converted to a ARV Mark II (with winch) but this may be the pilot model for the Mark II conversion.

It looks as though we have 51 ARV conversions of the Ram recorded. Possibly 50 ARV Mark 1's and 1 confirmed ARV Mark II.

Hope this helps,

J
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  #8  
Old 03-02-10, 10:31
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Jason,

Interesting thread you have started here!

1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Ginn View Post
I have attached the document I was referring to in my previous post. I believe Don Dingwall found it sand has passed it on to a few other folks.
Correct, and I shared it with the forum members in 2007:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
the official Ram tank holding listings only mention Gun Towers, Ammunition Carriers, Personnel Carriers and Wasp equipped turretless Rams.
Follow the link to see scans of the entire listings.

2)
Quote:
This 1945 document agrees with the Clive's detailed list on RamTank
Correct again, as Clive's list was based on the 1945 Ram tank holding listings.

3)
Quote:
Hanno mentions on the Sherman Register that the Netherlands acquired 2 Ram I's in 1946. Could these be the unaccounted for ARV's? It would be odd that of all the "A" vehicles in the Netherlands the Dutch would request (or accept) two obsolete 2 pdr equipped gun tanks when they were obviously after 75mm or greater equipped AFV's. If this were the case it would account for all Ram ARV's on the 1945 list.
Indeed at least one of the Rams in Netherlands Army stocks was a Ram I ARV I - we know for sure as the delapitated remains of one have been preserved. It was about the be scrapped after serving as a range target; luckily I was just in time to point out its significance so it was set apart from the other wrecks which were scrapped.

4)
Quote:
I guess the question is were the Canadian ARV numbers based on the platform used for the conversion or the model of ARV created? It appears that 36 Ram Mark I cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration and 14 Ram Mark II cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration.
The answer is that the Mk.'s designated the type of ARV, not the type of gun tank it was converted from.
So the ARV I was the basic recovery vehicle, indeed the Ram ARV I was an exception as all the other ARV I's shedded their turret.
The ARV II (see attached pics) was the proper recovery vehicle with a winch and a fixed, heavily armoured superstructure added.
Either type or ARV could be converted from either type of gun tank. It is important to differentiate between the gun types and the manufacturing details. Often features like the early suspension bogies with the centre top roller, hull side doors, auxiliary machine-gun turret etc, are associated with the Ram Mk.I. Untrue, the Ram Mk.I was fitted with a 2-pdr gun, while the Mk.II was fitted with a 6-pdr. gun. Must remind myself to send Clive that list of Ram manufacturing changes for inclusion on his website, as they clearly show those changes were much more gradual than the change from 2- to 6-pdr gun which led to the change in designation.

Hope this helps,
Hanno
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  #9  
Old 03-02-10, 17:04
Roger Lucy Roger Lucy is offline
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Default Ram ARVs

This is very interesting and useful.The file at LAC on Recovery Tanks has weekly returns on which tanks were sent to Wingets for modification, which ones were still there and which ones had been delivered. It's out for copying right now but when it's back I can retrieve it and determine how many Ram Is were in fact converted.

The work to modify the Rams as ARVs began in May, 1943 and was to be completed at the end of July, however due to a shortage of many of the required parts and tools,the last converted Rams were not delivered until February 1944, by which time Canadian Armoured units were being equipped with Sherman III and Sherman V ARVs. The original intent was to convert 78 Rams including all 40 Ram Is, the remainder being made up by early Ram IIs with the sponson doors. With the change of policy to equip armoured regiments with Sherman ARVs, Wingets was advised on 16 July to cease conversions after the 50th tank. i.e 38 Ram Is (of the other two, one was listed as derelict and the other had been earmarked for conversion as an AVRE) and 12 Ram IIs.

The vehicles were delivered to Wingets stripped of their armament and traverse mechanism and all equipment. Modifications at Wingets comprised removing the turret basket, and installing: bronze plates to secure the turret, a mantlet plug and dummy armament, stowage bins on the hull rear to hold spare parts, a dismountable jib with stowage brackets, a winch, a cable reel, a rear towing attachment and a Hollybone-drawbar. They were based on a Grant from the REME AFV Experimnetal Wing at Arborfield whose ability to haul a Ram through a muddy field were successfully demonstrated to 4 and 5 CAD in October 1942. In December 5 CAD had Grant T24594, converted along the same lines. Originally CMHQ planned to covert Grants into ARVs but in March 1943, it was decided to use early Rams instead.

The Ram ARV II CT159854 in the photo (and its also in Clive's register) is very late production and Clive's register shows it being transferred to the British in January 1944. Is it possible it was converted under British auspices, not Canadian, in which case all Canadian conversions were to ARV I configuration?

Roger Lucy
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Old 03-02-10, 17:45
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Post Ram ARVs

1. - in all the Canadian Army Overseas converted 52 Rams to ARVs (50 Ram ARV I based on 35x Ram Mk I and 15x Ram Mk II = 50 Ram ARV I plus 1x Ram ARV I pilot and 1x Ram ARV II pilot = 2 pilots)(50 + 2 = 52 Rams to ARVs)). Originally (March 1943) the Canadian Army Overseas required 126 Ram ARVs, but subsequently this requirement was reduced to 78 (April 1943) and after the decision was made in the summer of 1943 that Canadian armoured brigades would be equipped with M4A2 (Sherman III) and M4A4 (Sherman V) tanks, the requirement was dropped to 40 (plus a reserve of 10) and production of the Ram ARV I was ceased with completion of the 50th vehicle. The only Ram ARV II produced by the Canadian Army Overseas was the Ram ARV II pilot which was based on Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II - CT39859. (Source: my research for the forthcoming Service Publication Weapons of War series title The ARV in Canadian Service)

2. - Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II - CT159854 was indeed Struck Off Strength to the British in Jan 1944 and by 31 May 1945 under the WD number of 159854 had been converted as the pilot ARV II by the British. In photos this shows as RECT (Recovery Tank) 159854. Also, as/at 31 May 1945, due shortages in British stocks of the Sherman, an order was placed to have 100 Ram Mk II tanks (out of their stock) converted into ARV II (based on the pilot model 159854)(Source: page 20 - Policy and Progress Reports of the Directorate of Royal Armoured Corps, War Office, dated 30 June 1945). This order was subsequently cancelled in October 1945.
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  #11  
Old 14-02-10, 10:43
Roddy de Normann Roddy de Normann is offline
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Default Ct/t-159854

Good Morning to all....

Some infor ref 159854

CT. 159854/REC 159854 - Ram IID & ARV

13 Tp, C Sqn, 12th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

'COBAULT' while a gun tk with 12 CAR

- Mar 43 - Worthing, UK. Veh with 12 CAR. Internet pic via 'Armoured Acorn' -

- Veh later converted to ARV - Pic 'REC2 - 04' via Paul Roberts Archive

- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

Hope this is of interest

Roddy
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Old 14-02-10, 10:48
Roddy de Normann Roddy de Normann is offline
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Jason -

Apologies for not replying to you more quickly...

Ref CT. 40892...I have v little save for the following:

Ram IID Contract CDLV 283

Veh held against Central Canadian Stocks

- 15 Jul 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives

Not very helpfull I am afraid

Roddy
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  #13  
Old 14-02-10, 16:29
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Default So -

...lets imagine that a guy won a BIG lottery and had an inclination...

Does someone out there actually have copies of the technical sheets , workshop instructions, and/or drawings that would be neede to re-creats either:

A sexton Kangaroo, or

A Ram ARV?
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  #14  
Old 14-02-10, 17:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie fitton View Post
Does someone out there actually have copies of the technical sheets , workshop instructions, and/or drawings that would be neede to re-creats either:

A sexton Kangaroo
Charlie,

I presume you mean a Priest Kangaroo? In that case see, my web page Kangaroos in Italy for a description of the "CONVERSION OF PRIEST TO TROOP CARRIER".

HTH,
Hanno
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Old 20-02-10, 21:00
Roddy de Normann Roddy de Normann is offline
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Default RAM ARVs (Long Post)

To all -

Following on fm above, I have the fol details of the 50 RAM ARVs:

CT. 39791 - TKC 13 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

A Sqn, 6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment, 27th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 7

- 1 Jun 42 - UK. Veh into Regt wksps for 100 hr inspection
- 8 Oct 42 - Veh to wksps for 400 hr inspection - Regt Daily Veh Reports - RG24-C3, Vol 14212, ps. 653 & 1510
- 4 May 43 - Aldershot, UK. Veh fm 27 CAR to 1 CBOD - 27 CAR War Diary, Can NA Microfilm, T-12756, p.884
- 8 May 43 - UK. Veh to Winget Ltd for convertion to Ram ARV
- 4 Sep 43 - Veh convertion complete - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39792 - TKC 9 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 5

- 5 Aug 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped by Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39793 - TKC 8 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

AFV Gunnery School, Lulworth, Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 10

- Apr 42 - Lulworth, UK. Veh noted with Gnry School - www.ramtank.ca
- 24 Sep 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39794 - TKC 7 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

9th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (British Columbia Dragoons), 4th (Canadian) Ordnance Sub-depot, Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 15

- Aug 42 - Veh noted with 9 CAR
- Sep 42 - Veh sent on to J Olding for modification
- Oct 42 - Veh to 4 Can Ord Sub-depot - www.ramtank.ca
- 27 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893 - 1944/45
- Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39795 - TKC 9 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

RHQ Tp, HQ Sqn, 10th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Fort Garry Horse)

Montreal Shop No - 16 Ram I with FGH

- 9 Aug 42 - UK. Veh loaned to A Sqn. Noted on Sqn Movement Orders - Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12695/001468
- 9 Aug 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - 16 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh converted and awaiting shipment to units - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39797 - TKC 14 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

A Sqn, 2nd (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 18

- 21 Apr 42 - UK. Veh issued to LdSH
- 31 Jul 42 - UK. Veh noted in LdSH veh nominal roll - Regt War Diary, Can NA, Microfilm T-12564
- 22 Aug 42 - Veh evaced to Bde Ord Wksp
- 2 Sep 42 - Veh further evaced to Base Ord Wksp - Regt War Diary, PRO WO179/1148
- 24 Sep 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39798 - TKC 15 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

B Sqn, 6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars) (ARV part of Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks)

Montreal Shop No - 19

- 9 May 42 - UK. Veh motor under wksp observation - Regt Daily Veh Report - CAN RG24-C3, Vol 14211, p.534
- 24 Sep 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - ARV struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39799 - TKC 16 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

C Sqn, 6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars), C Sqn, 27th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks
Montreal Shop No - 20 - Was both Gun Tk & Ram ARV with 27 CAR

- 3 Jun 42 - UK. Veh with 6 CAR & into wksps for new clutch
- 10 Jun 42 - Veh back into wksps for damaged Homelite engine
- 8 Oct 42 - Veh to wksps for 400 hr inspection - 6 CAR Daily Veh Reports - CAN RG24-C3 Vol 14212, ps.656, 662 & 1510
- 4 May 43 - Aldershot, UK. Veh fm 27 CAR to 1 CBOD (prob for conversion to ARV) - 27 CAR War Diary, Can NA Microfilm, T-12756, p.884
- 8 May 43 - UK. Veh to Winget Ltd for convertion to Ram ARV
- 4 Sep 43 - Veh convertion complete - 11 Sep 43 - Veh converted and shiped out fm Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 9 Jan 44 - UK, Ex FROST. Veh noted back with 27 CAR as ARV. Was X cas during ex with carburettor probs - 27 CAR ex veh returns, Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12757
- 1 Apr 44 - Veh as ARV noted with C Sqn, 27 CAR - Regt op veh listing, Regt War Diary, CNA Microfilm T-12757, ps.1734-1740
- 1944/45 - ARV Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39800 - TKC 18 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

AFV Gunnery School, Lulworth, Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 21

- Apr 42 - Lulworth, UK. Veh to Gunnery School, Lulworth - www.ramtank.ca
- 24 Sep 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39801 - TKC 21 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 22

- 4 Sep 43 - Veh in conversion to Ram ARV with Winget Ltd
- 10 Sep 43 - Veh noted as converted and awaiting shipment out to units
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped out fm Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39803 - TKC 24 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

2nd (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse) & Held against Central Canadian Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 24

- 14 Apr 42 - UK. Veh issued to LdSH
- 31 Jul 42 - UK. Veh noted in LdSH veh nominal roll
- 18 Oct 42 - Veh noted as in Ord Wksps - Regt War Diary, Can NA, Microfilm T-12564
- 5 Jun 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 9 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped by Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives


CT. 39804 - TKC 25 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

C & B Sqns, 6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars) & ARV held against Central Canadian Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 25

- 18 May 42 - UK. Sqn enquiry ref damage to veh armament - 1 H Regt Orders
- 28 May 42 - Veh undergoing 100 hr Inspection
- 1 Jun 42 - Veh into wksps for Fire Extinguisher refit
- 8 Oct 42 - Veh to wksps for 400 hr inspection - Regt Daily Veh Reports - CNA RG24-C3 Vol 14211, ps.419 & 556, Vol 14212, p.653 & 1510
- 8 May 43 - UK. Veh to Winget Ltd for conversion to Ram ARV
- 11 Sep 43 - Veh converted and shiped out fm Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 15 Jun 45 - ARV listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives


CT. 39805 - TKC 4 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

2nd (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 26

- 21 Apr 04 - UK. Veh issued to LdSH
- 31 Jul 42 - UK. Veh noted in regt veh nominal roll - Regt War Diary, Can NA, Microfilm T-12564
- 2 Sep 42 - Veh evaced fm regt to Base Ord Wksp - Regt War Diary, PRO WO179/1148
- 5 Jun 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped by Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39806 - TKC 17 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

2nd (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 27

- 8 Apr 42 - UK. Veh issued to LdSH
- 31 Jul 42 - UK. Veh noted in LdSH veh nominal roll - Regt War Diary, Can NA, Microfilm T-12564
- 4 Sep 43 - Veh in conversion to Ram ARV with Winget Ltd
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as having been shipped out of Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39807 - TKC 27 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

B Sqn, 5th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (8th Princess Louise's New Brunswick Hussars) & 4th (Canadian) Ordnance Sub-depot

Montreal Shop No - 28

- Aug 42 - Veh TOS 5 CAR
- Sep 42 - Veh to J Olding for modifications - www.ramtank.ca
- 7 Dec 42 - UK. Veh back to 5 CAR fm Depot - Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12651
- 29 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 16 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh converted and awaiting shipment to units - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39808 - TKC 2 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 29

5 Aug 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV

- 10 Sep 43 - Veh noted being converted
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as converted & awaiting shipment - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives
- Oct 44 - Veh noted as ARV with Hays Plant Ltd - www.ramtank.ca


CT. 39809 - TKC 6 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 30

- 6 Aug 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped by Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives


CT. 39810 - TKC 30 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

9th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (British Columbia Dragoons) & Held against Central Canadian Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 31

- Aug 42 - UK. Veh noted with 9 CAR
- Sep 42 - Veh to J Olding for modifications - www.ramtank.ca
- 27 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives


CT. 39811 - TKC 40 - Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) - Contract CDLV 283

A Sqn, 6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (ARV with Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks)

Montreal Shop No - 3

- 8 May 42 - UK. Veh engine burnt out with 1H. Veh in Regt Wksps awaiting new engine
- 8 Oct 42 - Veh to wksps for 400 hr inspection - Regt Daily Veh Reports, CAN RG24-C3, Vol 14211, p. 533 & Vol 14212, p. 1510
- 5 Aug 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39813 TKC 1 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

2nd (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 33

- 14 Apr 42 - UK. Veh issued to LdSH
- 31 Jul 42 - UK. Veh noted in LdSH veh nominal roll - Regt War Diary, Can NA, Microfilm T-12564
- 4 Sep 43 - Veh in conversion to Ram ARV with Winget Ltd
- 10 Sep 43 - Veh noted as converted and awaiting shipment out to units
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as having been shipped out of Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39814 TKC 10 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

B Sqn, 10th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Fort Garry Horse)

Montreal Shop No - 34
- Veh Ram I with FGH

- 9 Aug 42 - UK. Veh loaned to A Sqn for exercise - Sqn Movement Order, Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12695/001468
- 8 May 43 - UK. Veh to Winget Ltd for convertion to Ram ARV
- 4 Sep 43 - Veh convertion complete
- 11 Sep 43 - Veh converted and shiped out fm Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39815 TKC 11 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

A Sqn, 10th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Fort Garry Horse)

Montreal Shop No - 35
- Veh Ram I with FGH

- 9 Aug 42 - UK. Veh loaned to A Sqn for exercise - Sqn Movement Order, Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12695/001468
- 4 Sep 43 - Veh in conversion to Ram ARV with Winget Ltd
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as having been shipped out of Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives

CT. 39816 TKC 37 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283 & (ARV) 2539

C Sqn, 5th & 2nd (Canadian) Armoured Regiments (8th Princess Louise's New Brunswick Hussars & Lord Strathcona's Horse)

Montreal Shop No - 36
- Veh Turret No with 5 CAR - 'C22'

- Aug 42 - UK. Veh TOS 5 CAR
- Sep 42 - Veh with 5 CAR. Noted as in wksps for repair
- 7 Dec 42 - Veh back to 5 CAR fm wksps - 5 CAR Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12651/000621 & 000867
- 27 Apr 43 - UK. Veh fm Winget Ltd after conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 18 May 43 - Veh TOS as ARV fm 5 Cdn Armd Div Wksps - LdSH War Diary, PRO WO179/1882
- Prob went on to become pilot veh for Ram ARV Mk.I - 'Wheels & Tracks', No.51
- 15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives

CT. 39817 TKC 23 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

B Sqn, 6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (ARV with Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks)

Montreal Shop No - 37

- 8 May 42 - UK. Veh with 1H under wksps observation
- 19 May 42 - Veh fire extinguishers refitted
- 1 Jun 42 - Veh back into wksps due to oil temp probs
- 8 Oct 42 - Veh to wksps for 400 hr inspection - Regt Daily Veh Reports, CAN RG24-C3, Vol 14211, p. 533 & 545 & Vol 14212, ps.653 & 1510
- 5 Jun 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39818 TKC 3 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

C Sqn, 10th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Fort Garry Horse) & 27th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment)

Montreal Shop No - 38
- Veh Ram I with CARs

- 9 Aug 42 - UK. Veh loaned to A Sqn for exercise - Sqn Movement Order, Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12695/1468
- 4 May 43 - Aldershot, UK. Veh fm 27 CAR to 1 CBOD - 27 CAR War Diary, Can NA Microfilm, T-12756, p.884
- 8 May 43 - UK. Veh to Winget Ltd for convertion to Ram ARV
- 4 Sep 43 - Veh convertion complete - 11 Sep 43 - Veh converted and shiped out fm Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives

CT. 39819 TKC 20 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

2nd (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 39

- 2 Apr 42 - UK. Veh issued to LdSH
- 31 Jul 42 - UK. Veh noted in LdSH veh nominal roll - Regt War Diary, Can NA, Microfilm T-12564
- 5 Aug 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as converted & awaiting shipment
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped by Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39820 TKC 19 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

B Sqn, 27th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 40
- Veh as ARV with 27 CAR

- 4 Sep 43 - Veh in conversion to Ram ARV with Winget Ltd
- 10 Sep 43 - Veh noted as converted and awaiting shipment out to units
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as having been shipped out of Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1 Apr 44 - Veh as ARV noted with B Sqn, 27 CAR - Regt op veh listing, Regt War Diary, CNA Microfilm T-12757, ps.1734-1740
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39821 TKC 28 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

C Sqn, 10th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Fort Garry Horse) & 27th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment)

Montreal Shop No - 41
- Veh Ram I with CARs

- Jun 42 - Luddshot Common. Veh photographed for press articles. Pic No. A16309 - Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12696, p 337
- 9 Aug 42 - UK. Veh loaned to A Sqn for exercise - Sqn Movement Order, Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12695/01468
- 4 May 43 - Aldershot, UK. Veh fm 27 CAR was in 4 (Can) Armd Tps Wksp prior to HO to 1 CBOD - 27 CAR War Diary, Can NA Microfilm, T-12756, p.884
- 22 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as converted & awaiting shipment - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893

CT. 39822 TKC 39 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

B Sqn, 10th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Fort Garry Horse)

Montreal Shop No - 42
- Veh Ram I with FGH

- Jun 42 - Luddshot Common. Veh photographed for press articles. Pic No. A16358 - Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12696, p 346
- 9 Aug 42 - UK. Veh loaned to A Sqn for exercise - Sqn Movement Order, Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12695/001468
- 8 May 43 - UK. Veh to Winget Ltd for conversion to Ram ARV
- 9 Jun 43 - Veh returned to 1 CBOD
- 9 Aug 43 - Veh back again with Winget Ltd for conversion
- 16 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh converted and awaiting shipment to units - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge
- 1945 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39824 TKC 26 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 44

- 22 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as converted & awaiting shipment
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped by Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39825 TKC 32 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

2nd (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 45

- 31 Jul 42 - UK. Veh noted in LdSH veh nominal roll - Regt War Diary, Can NA, Microfilm T-12564
- 14 Oct 42 - Veh evaced fm regt to Base Ord Wksp - Regt War Diary, PRO WO179/1148
- 9 Aug 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped by Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39826 DND 6057

TKC 36 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

9th Canadian Armoured Regiment (British Columbia Dragoons), RHQ Tp, 6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks
Montreal Shop No - 46

- Apr 42 - Veh presented to BCD Regt by towns-people of Kitchener, Ontario - Pic Ram 1-04 (DND 6057) via Paul Roberts Archive
- 28 May 42 - UK. Veh noted with 1H having had boggie wheel probs
- 8 Oct 42 - Veh to wksps for 400 hr inspection - Regt Daily Veh Reports - CNA RG24-C3 Vol 14211, p.556 & Vol 14212, p. 1510
- 24 Sep 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - ARV struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39827 TKC 31 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

HQ, 2nd (Canadian) Armoured Brigade, 4th (Canadian) Ordnance Sub-Depot, Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 47

- Aug 42 - UK. Veh noted with HQ, 2 Can Armd Bde
- Sep 42 - Veh to J Olding for modification
- Oct 42 - Veh noted with 4 Can Ord Sub-Depot
- 22 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as converted & awaiting shipment
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped by Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - www.ramtank.ca - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39828 TKC 33 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

RAC Gunnery School, Lulworth & Central Canadian Stocks
Montreal Shop No - 48
- Apr 42 - Veh trialled at Bovington & Lulworth alongside a Ram II - 'Wheels & Tracks', No.50
- Oct 44 - Veh shown as held as Central Canadian Stocks - www.ramtank.ca
- 24 Sep 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives

CT. 39829 TKC 35 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

B Sqn, 6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment & A Sqn, 27th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment) (ARV with Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks)

Montreal Shop No - 49 -
Veh was ARV with 27 CAR

- 8 May 42 - UK. Veh boggie suspension cradle broken
- 8 Oct 42 - Veh to wksps for 400 hr inspection - Regt Daily Veh Reports, CNA RG24-C3, Vol 14211, p. 533 & Vol 14212, p.1510
- 4 May 43 - Aldershot, UK. Veh fm 27 CAR was in 4 (Can) Armd Wksps prior to HO to 1 CBOD - 27 CAR War Diary, Can NA Microfilm, T-12756, p.884
- 10 Sep 43 - Veh in conversion to Ram ARV with Winget Ltd
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as having been shipped out of Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1 Apr 44 - Veh as ARV noted with A Sqn, 27 CAR - Regt op veh listing, Regt War Diary, CNA Microfilm T-12757, ps.1734-1740
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39830 TKC 34 Ram I (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

Montreal Shop No - 50

- 29 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 16 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh converted and awaiting shipment to units - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39836 TKC 44 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

RHQ Tp, HQ Sqn, 5th Canadian Armoured Regiment (8th New Brunswick Hussars) Large 'Z3' on turret with 5 CAR Nov 42 - Crowborough - Internet pic

- 9 Jun 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39839 TKC 43 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment, Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

- 2 Oct 42 - UK. Veh with 1 CAR. Into wksps for 100 hr inspection - Regt Daily Veh Report - CAN RG24-C3 Vol 14212, p.1499
- 29 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39844 TKC 50 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

3rd Canadian Armoured Regiment (Govenor General's Horse Guards), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

- 11 Oct 42 - Veh SOS & returned to Depot - Regt War Diary, PRO WO179/1149
- 29 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39848 TKC 51 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

6th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment, Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

- 15 Oct 42 - UK. Veh into LAD 6 CAR for 6 pdr mods - Regt Daily Veh Report - CNA RG24-C3, Vol 14212, p.1516
- 27 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 10 Sep 43 - Veh noted as being converted
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh noted as converted & awaiting shipment - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39852 TKC 47 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

C Sqn, 10th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Fort Garry Horse) Veh Ram IIA with FGH

- 9 Aug 42 - UK. Veh loaned to A Sqn for exercise - Sqn Movement Order, Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12695/001468
- 27 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39859 TKC 69 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

3rd Canadian Armoured Regiment (Govenor General's Horse Guards), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

- Apr 42 - Veh noted with regt which reorged fm Armd Regt to Armd Recce Regt then went to Italy with Canadian 5 Armd Div - Regt War Diary via Len Heidebrecht Archive
- 2 Apr 43 - UK. Veh to Winget Ltd for convertion to Ram ARV
- 4 Sep 43 Veh conversion complete - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39865 TKC 78 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

C Sqn, 5th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (8th Princess Louise's New Brunswick Hussars)

- 31 Jul 42 - UK. Veh TOS 5 CAR fm Depot
- 4 Nov 42 - UK. Veh back to 5 CAR having been modified
- 15 Dec 42 - Veh SOS 5 CAR back to depot - Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12651, ps. 525 & 794
- 27 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39867 TKC 85 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

HQ Sqn, 4th (Canadian) Armoured Brigade & Held against Central Canadian Stocks Engine Serial No: 120359

- 26 Nov 42 - UK. Veh noted as having an engine requiring 87 octane fuel. Others of more modern design only require 80 Octane - 21 CAR War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12721, p.436/437
- 27 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives

CT. 39869 TKC 80 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

- 5 Jun 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 16 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh converted and awaiting shipment to units - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39874 TKC 74 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

- 5 Jun 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- Veh to 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39879 TKC 76 Ram IIA (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

- 11 Jun 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV
- 2 Oct 43 - Veh undergoing conversion
- 23 Oct 43 - Veh noted as shipped by Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39982 Ram IIB (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

5th (Canadian) Armoured Division & Central Canadian Stocks

- Oct 42 - Veh noted with 5 Can Armd Div - www.ramtank.ca
- 5 Jun 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives

CT. 39985 Ram IIB (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

5th (Canadian) Armoured Division, Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

- Oct 42 - Veh noted with 5 Can Armd Div - www.ramtank.ca
- 27 May 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

CT. 39997 Ram IIB (converted to Ram ARV) Contract CDLV 283

Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

- 5 Jun 43 - UK. Veh arrived at Winget Ltd & awaiting conversion to Ram ARV - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893
- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone has any other data ref these vehs, do let me know

Roddy
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  #16  
Old 08-12-19, 13:55
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Ram ARV I, sadly the census number is unknown:

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ID:	110687 Click image for larger version

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  #17  
Old 08-12-19, 13:56
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Rect 159854

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddy de Normann View Post
Good Morning to all....

Some infor ref 159854

CT. 159854/REC 159854 - Ram IID & ARV

13 Tp, C Sqn, 12th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

'COBAULT' while a gun tk with 12 CAR

- Mar 43 - Worthing, UK. Veh with 12 CAR. Internet pic via 'Armoured Acorn' -

- Veh later converted to ARV - Pic 'REC2 - 04' via Paul Roberts Archive

- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

Hope this is of interest

Roddy
Attached is a bad quality picture of Ram ARV II RECT 159854.

Clive Law's website Ramtank.ca is sorely missed...

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  #18  
Old 08-12-19, 15:15
Dan Martel's Avatar
Dan Martel Dan Martel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
Clive Law's website Ramtank.ca is sorely missed...
Nothing on the internet is ever really gone.

Ramtank.ca

Cheers,
Dan.
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  #19  
Old 04-05-20, 22:56
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default ramtank.ca

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
Nothing on the internet is ever really gone. Ramtank.ca
Thanks Dan, of course!
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  #20  
Old 04-05-20, 22:56
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Ram ARV Mk II RECT-159854

There may be some conflicting info in this thread, this is what I make of it:

Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II, CT159854, Shop No.1399:
  • First assigned to 13 Tp, C Sqn, 12th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks. Named 'COBAULT' while a gun tank with 12 CAR. Records show it was at Worthing, UK with 12 CAR in March '43.
  • CT159854 was Struck Off Strength from Canadian Central Stocks to Central British Stocks in Jan 1944 and by 31 May 1945 under the WD number of 159854 had been converted as the pilot ARV II by the British. In photos this shows as RECT (Recovery Tank) 159854.
  • Also, as/at 31 May 1945, due shortages in British stocks of the Sherman, an order was placed to have 100 Ram Mk II tanks (out of their stock) converted into ARV II (based on this pilot model, RECT 159854). This order was subsequently cancelled in October 1945.

It seems this was the only Ram ARV II converted. David Herbert spotted the remains of one in a British scrapyard decades ago.

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  #21  
Old 05-05-20, 17:11
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Default Ram ARVII

Regarding Ram ARVII production,

There were definitely more than one built because I have seen the remains of two. Hopefully photos below, sorry that they are rather poor.

The more intact one was at Cashmore's scrap yard in south Wales in March 1981. Someone showed me a photo in a book about scrapping railway rolling stock (no idea which book but I seem to remember it was right at the back). I visited and managed to get in and take photos. I expressed an interest in buying it but was told it was too useful as an anchor point when winching scrap around the yard but they would let me know if it became available. A year later the yard had been cleared and when I found my previous contact he said that he didn't think I was serious. What was there was in reasonable condition but there was no visible army registration.

The destroyed one was on Sennybridge AT2 range in August 1988. It was totally destroyed but obviously not the same one as it still had its overhanging rear armour.

Adrian Barrell in post #2 of this thread gives post war registration numbers for 47 Ram ARVIIs. These numbers would have been issued against existing serviceable vehicles (in 1947) that were being renumbered from their wartime 'CT' numbers which would have been unchanged from when they were new gun tanks. The 'RE' prefix on what I assume to be the prototype CT159854, is not a conventional addition but I have seen Sherman V ARVs in Normandy with REC prefixes replacing the T so this is presumably a version of that. This all fits in with an order being raised in May 1945 to convert 100 vehicles but cancelled five months later. I do not have access to their record cards but if they exist they will give the 'CT' numbers against the post war style numbers and also disposal information which might be interesting.

I think it is safe to assume that at least 47 Ram ARVIIs were built and that 47 remained in service post 1947. They would have been very useful as they were faster than the Churchill ARVII but had the same winching ability though they were not as good in very heavy going.
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Last edited by David Herbert; 13-05-20 at 22:46. Reason: Added the bit about Sherman V ARVs
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  #22  
Old 06-05-20, 02:43
david moore david moore is offline
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Default Cashmore of Newport scrap yard 1969

David - is this the photo you meant? From the book Steam for Scrap. Poor quality I'm afraid but it just shows the tank at the right of the picture. The caption says that it is one of three Sherman tanks sent to Cashmores and that they were flail tanks. The yard is (was) at Newport, Mon - at least it was Monmouthshire when I lived in Cardiff in the 60's!
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  #23  
Old 06-05-20, 09:37
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Cashmore's Scrapyard, Newport, 06/67

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Originally Posted by david moore View Post
David - is this the photo you meant? From the book Steam for Scrap. Poor quality I'm afraid but it just shows the tank at the right of the picture. The caption says that it is one of three Sherman tanks sent to Cashmores and that they were flail tanks. The yard is (was) at Newport, Mon - at least it was Monmouthshire when I lived in Cardiff in the 60's!
David, attached below is a slightly better version of your picture. With all those train enthusiasts taking pictures of rolling stock there muct be more pictures of those "army tanks" lurking in the background.

"British Rail Riddles Standard Class 5MT 73116, being scrapped in 1967. Death amindst the carnage for BR Riddles Standard Class "5MT" 4-6-0 No.73116 "Iseult" being torn apart at Cashmore's Scrapyard, Newport, 06/67."

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Source: By Hugh Llewelyn - 73116Uploaded by Oxyman, CC BY-SA 2.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=24383308
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  #24  
Old 06-05-20, 11:12
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Well done David and Hanno ! I hadn't expected it to found so quickly. Yes that's the photo, very sad to see the 5MT being cut up.

Judging by the shed and the crane in the background, the Ram is exactly where I saw it in 1981. It is obviously the same one as the 'modifications' are the same. When I visited Cashmores there was no suggestion of any other tanks so presumably they had long since been cut up. This one had only survived because they had used it as a dead weight to winch against. There were cables around both middle bogies with shackles on them and a huge winch at the base of the big crane in the background of the book photo. I wonder if the steam guys took any earlier photos ?

A lot of the big scrap dealers that got the big contracts to scrap the British railway system when it was radically cut back in the 1960s had previously cut up vast amounts of WW2 surplus armour. There are many stories of fields full of tanks etc being cut as there was simply no use for them once smaller friendly countries had been supplied. There must be photos of these in the UK similar to the photos that have come to light of the Deelan (? sorry Hanno) dump in Holland.

David
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  #25  
Old 10-05-20, 09:37
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Ram ARV II survivors

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert View Post
Regarding Ram ARVII production,

There were definitely more than one built because I have seen the remains of two. Hopefully photos below, sorry that they are rather poor.

The more intact one was at Cashmore's scrap yard in south Wales in March 1981. Someone showed me a photo in a book about scrapping railway rolling stock (no idea which book but I seem to remember it was right at the back). I visited and managed to get in and take photos. I expressed an interest in buying it but was told it was too useful as an anchor point when winching scrap around the yard but they would let me know if it became available. A year later the yard had been cleared and when I found my previous contact he said that he didn't think I was serious. What was there was in reasonable condition but there was no visible army registration.

The destroyed one was on Sennybridge AT2 range in August 1988. It was totally destroyed but obviously not the same one as it still had its overhanging rear armour.
Hello David,

Thanks for sharing your sightings. I recall you telling me about that Ram ARV II at Cashmore's Scrapyard, not about the one at Sennybridge AT2 range.

It is confusing that the period documentation refers to Ram Mk.I and Mk.II ARVs which refer to the type of tank which was converted, rather than the type of ARV.

Attached is part of the listing of Ram tanks Struck Off Strength (S.O.S.) and transferred to the British Army in June 1945. It lists the census numbers of the ARVs converted from Ram Mk I and Ram Mk II.

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  #26  
Old 10-05-20, 09:40
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Default "The Second World War Armoured Recovery Vehicle in Canadian Service"

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Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner View Post
1. - in all the Canadian Army Overseas converted 52 Rams to ARVs (50 Ram ARV I based on 35x Ram Mk I and 15x Ram Mk II = 50 Ram ARV I plus 1x Ram ARV I pilot and 1x Ram ARV II pilot = 2 pilots)(50 + 2 = 52 Rams to ARVs)). Originally (March 1943) the Canadian Army Overseas required 126 Ram ARVs, but subsequently this requirement was reduced to 78 (April 1943) and after the decision was made in the summer of 1943 that Canadian armoured brigades would be equipped with M4A2 (Sherman III) and M4A4 (Sherman V) tanks, the requirement was dropped to 40 (plus a reserve of 10) and production of the Ram ARV I was ceased with completion of the 50th vehicle. The only Ram ARV II produced by the Canadian Army Overseas was the Ram ARV II pilot which was based on Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II - CT39859. (Source: my research for the forthcoming Service Publication Weapons of War series title The ARV in Canadian Service)

2. - Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II - CT159854 was indeed Struck Off Strength to the British in Jan 1944 and by 31 May 1945 under the WD number of 159854 had been converted as the pilot ARV II by the British. In photos this shows as RECT (Recovery Tank) 159854. Also, as/at 31 May 1945, due shortages in British stocks of the Sherman, an order was placed to have 100 Ram Mk II tanks (out of their stock) converted into ARV II (based on the pilot model 159854)(Source: page 20 - Policy and Progress Reports of the Directorate of Royal Armoured Corps, War Office, dated 30 June 1945). This order was subsequently cancelled in October 1945.
Recently, Mark Tonner wrote the article "The Second World War Armoured Recovery Vehicle in Canadian Service".

It goes attached and I recommend reading it: ARV in Cdn Svc - 26 March 2020.pdf
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  #27  
Old 10-05-20, 13:19
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post

It is confusing that the period documentation refers to Ram Mk.I and Mk.II ARVs which refer to the type of tank which was converted, rather than the type of ARV.
Yes, but note that Ram I and Ram II ARVs with side doors are all Ram ARV Mk.Is and all Ram ARV Mk.IIs are built on very late Ram IIs. and are basically the same conversion as Churchill ARVIIs.

To further confuse things a lot of the early official correspondence about Rams refers to them as "Canadian M3 tanks" and for a long time Sextons were referred to as "Ram 25pdr SP".

David

Last edited by David Herbert; 10-05-20 at 13:24.
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  #28  
Old 10-05-20, 23:56
david moore david moore is offline
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Default A bit off-topic but....

Not a Ram I know but another Cashmore shot from February 1969 showing not only another standard 5MT ready for slaughter but a Churchill? The caption again refers to it as "a flail tank".
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  #29  
Old 11-05-20, 01:59
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Thanks David.

The Churchill is a bridgelayer conversion. You can see the massive low pressure hydraulic cylinder and part of the very long ram rod on top of the tank at the extreme right of the photo. Also part of the bridge launching structure on the front of the tank directly above the loco smokebox. The top of the fighting compartment seems to have been cut out, there was originally a slightly raised commander's position with vision ports where the turret had originally been. By 1981 when I was there there were no remnants of steam locos to be seen.

David
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